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Balance changes people won't hate - weapon balance

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Kael Trighton, Jun 14, 2019.

  1. Kael Trighton

    Kael Trighton Deadeye
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    Fundamentally changing darkfall combat isn't popular because the combat is what keeps everyone playing the game 10 years later. It stands that test of time so it doesn't need many changes, just needs to be expanded with new content (or refreshing/rebalancing existing content)

    One area darkfall has sucked at is addressing blatant power gaps- there are plenty of options in darkfall that aren't used because they aren't viable.

    This includes polearms, 1h weapons, sithras, slow staves, and to a lesser extent GA/GC and bows. Taking note from other successful competitive games, the way to address this is to give slight nudges to the non-viable content until you see it start to be prevalent in gameplay. The balancing needs to be an iterative process. Increasing the under-used weapons up to parity with the cobra greatsword standard gives the combat more depth and just overall improves the game for nearly zero developer time investment.

    Going through the list, starting with polearm. Not ever really viable since original darkfall, the wide arc just doesn't make up for the fact that it gets out dpsd hard. On the other hand you don't just want to only crank up the speed or else all weapons are the same. Regardless I think pole arm should be at .2, maybe .25 speed and get a slightly longer range.

    1h weapons (and mounted combat) aren't even seen much anymore for pve, not to mention never seen in pvp (occasional mounted in sieges but never 1h on foot). These are currently about .12 damage less than 2h GS but .1 faster. But what is not taken into account is 1) their range is low and 2) the value of a shield is over-valued. Parrying is strong but its also really easy to get disabled (disable lasts a long time too) and blocking gets you locked in an animation. For these reasons the first iteration could be adding .1 speed to axes and .15 speed to swords and clubs. These could be fun pve weapons if they were viable because with a faster speed you could actually weave in parrys between swings. If knives are .9 speed, these should at least be .7 if not higher.

    Sithras are much like polearms- as a slow swinger they don't put out good dps. Their crafting recipe is expensive and tedious. So they need to go in one of two directions- be worth their huge crafting cost and have significantly higher DPS or just move them to a position of a specialized pve weapon and reduce their cost significantly but keep them the same stat wise.

    Slow staves see no use because their numbers just don't make sense. If you can have a .7 magnitude cobra at .75 speed, why would you use the same rank corpsecaller that can hit 1.0 damage but is .3 speed? In case you haven't noticed there is a trend here, speed = higher dps. The other main issue with staff speed is the only way to net gain in stats is to do all 3 transfers. So the faster you can crank out all transfers, the faster you can stat up. Slow staves need something to compensate for 1)animation lock 2)taking significantly longer to do a stat up rotation 3) straight up lower dps.

    To fix issues like these you just need to iterate to find the right balance where slower staves hit sufficiently hard (or extra transfer magnitude) to be viable along side the speedier counterparts. Slow staves could also use new crafting material requirements. They would be great candidates for the new rare wood that is around. Needing things like 5 golem quartz for an omen pushes the cost of what would be a decent staff for the money over the edge into non-viability. Corpsecaller needs to be moved up to at least .5 speed to be worthy of its r80 status.

    Bows would need some development time to become more viable as a primary play style- things like bow abilities. A good starting point: adding a bow power attack that does high damage (maybe slows for a cpl seconds). Bow playstyle is boring but has potential if it had more buttons to press.

    GA needs the powerattack to have a slightly larger hit box and its golden. GC I don't know I havent tested them but supposedly they have good stam damage so they may be fine just situational against heavy armor.

    I hope we see some of these changes in the upcoming patches. Viable polearms could be a new element in pvp- hard hitting wide swinging long range melee. 1h/sithra and shield could make for more interactive, higher action pve and possibly even find a place in pvp. Slow staves could buck the trend of spitting out tons of spells until your mana bar depletes, and instead give an option for hard hitting and mana efficient spells - high reward for high risk of getting stuck in a cast animation or being unable to cast the right spell in time to react to situations.
     
  2. akomagalingss

    akomagalingss Goblin Scout

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    All I got to say is hashtag revert combat. #revertcombat #rc #makegamegreatagain
     
  3. joanouse

    joanouse Goblin Warrior

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    I can see why people try and change things, games closed down many many times in many different conntients.

    Now we have what 60 actives? And another 50-80 that may log in for a siege.
     
  4. TyteDaddyTite

    TyteDaddyTite Obsidian Golem
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    Corpse caller needs to go over 1.0 magnitude.
     
  5. Scrubby Bear

    Scrubby Bear Eodrin
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    Only thing I don't like about corpse caller going above 1.0 is that it will break rays. The only downside is slower cast time but that is irrelevant on spells that have no cast time so its effectively just a better, much harder hitting staff in those situations that would heavily favor low ping players in a game that already heavily favors them.

    I would like to see all staffs get the same speed. Completely remove it from the equation because its impossible to balance a slow staff right. This is because to be worth getting hit while casting slower spells it has to really blow peoples faces off which does all kinds of fuckery to ttks. Instead make them scale only in damage, efficiency, and even defensive stats. Then you get more room to balance in ways that increase rather than decreases TTKs.
     
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  6. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    Speed doesn't necessarily mean higher dps, thought that may be the case here as I haven't tested all of the weapons, but I think a general rule of thumb should be that slower weapons need a higher dps than the faster counter parts. There are many other benefits to having speed on your weapons, no reason they also need equal or higher dps.

    I tend to lean toward that kind of balancing for all weapons, same with protections, but we do end up with some blandness if we go too far.

    What about giving spells a damage cap like staves have? Ray's could have a max that can't be exceeded by any staff and cutie callers (auto correct, leaving it) can go above 1.0.

    Thoughts on that?
     
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  7. Frog

    Frog Black Knight
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    actually no the corpsecall is a really stupid looking staff
     
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  8. Scrubby Bear

    Scrubby Bear Eodrin
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    You mean the malformed fetus staff?
     
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  9. Grimtide

    Grimtide Evil Eye
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    Patch it in, rename the staff.
     
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  10. Funky zeit

    Funky zeit Spellgazer
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    Why would slower weapons have more dps over faster weapons? In pretty much every game don't slower weapons equal more damage per hit but less dps overall? perhaps theres a reason behind that? balance maybe?
     
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  11. Scrubby Bear

    Scrubby Bear Eodrin
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    Because that is the only way to make them more viable in this game without new mechanics. This is because slower casting means you are giving up combo potential, you will be taking more damage and your ability to react to changes is slower. So in order to be worth using they really have to have insane damage.

    In other games such as first person shooters it has to be the opposite. This is because even though the dps is lower you can hide that disadvantage with peeking and using cover. You cant really do that in dfo. So combined with combos and ranged/melee transitions faster is almost always better even over damage. To overcome the disadvantages of slower casting just requires a ton more damage. Enough that in my opinion it breaks things.
     
  12. Nat

    Nat Shadow Knight
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    I hate it
     
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  13. WizardKing

    WizardKing Skeleton Archer
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    ON STAVES:
    • Why are the BEST staves in the game worse than the simple black bolt?
    • Why are debuff , utility, and buff spells not affected by their schools staves?
    • Spell Duration, and Spell Success have almost zero value for staves - would the game benefit from other staff specific enchantments>
    • Spell Duration is completely broken! Why have this!?
     
  14. Billy Lee

    Billy Lee Varangian Warthane
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    It's because slow weapons get punished hard when they miss an attack whereas fast weapons like greatswords don't punish you as badly for misses.
     
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  15. propain

    propain Black Knight
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    Bump.
     
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  16. Battle Smurf

    Battle Smurf Oak Lord
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    If you want to make one hand weapons viable as a main here's what you do.

    1. Make it so that pressing parry IMMEDIATELY cancels a swing in progress and starts blocking.

    2. Remove predisable. Disable should ONLY work if it hits someone actually blocking. (This will have ancillary benefits to help TTK and counter WoF/ getting focused and it allows people to play more mind games/ counter plays by pretending to parry but dropping it immediately when your about to be disabled then start again after they waste disable)

    3. Decrease archery disable cast time and lower the cooldown of all parry disables both archery and melee. (The reason being that by removing predisable you're going to need to be able to disable more often and faster with archery, again it's all about counter plays/ a speed chess match)

    4. Make it so that the longer you consecutively hold block down without releasing it momentarily, the less damage it reduces and the more stamina it costs you.

    5. Add a "perfect timed block" where if you only start blocking RIGHT before being hit it causes your attacker to lose extra stamina.

    @kilrain these things would add much more depth to combat
     
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  17. Sero

    Sero Gnoll Vilegaunt
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    There goes battle smurf, posting like hes got good ideas again.
     
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  18. Fat Thor IRL

    Fat Thor IRL New Member

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    "AKA"= copy paste Darkfall New Dawns melee changes.

    I know this will be a pretty unpopular opinion here, but New Dawns MELEE pvp was more balanced then any version I've played and the only version that encouraged diverse melee weapon builds. I see no reason why we can't copy the few good things, it's what any smart business does
     
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  19. Battle Smurf

    Battle Smurf Oak Lord
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    You're 100% correct of course, but by pointing out New Dawn did it, you've just ensured people like Sero will be against it by default.

    These kids act like they're so good/skillful, but then they throw a shit fit when you mention removing predisable or adding timed blocking, both of which add a ton more depth and a higher skill ceiling while simultaneously allowing more weapon diversity .

    There is a reason why UW and ND both removed predisable.
     
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  20. FirstNameLastNameRpIsCool

    FirstNameLastNameRpIsCool Goblin Warrior

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    In the MMORPGs Ive played speed has always meant higher DPS, I would say in the majority of other games too. The latter part is not something I'm staking my life on. I believe this is the case even in games like CS and strategy games like Startcraft and Warcraft.

    The benefit of slower weapons in those games have been that high damage is a lot harder to protect yourself against and the hit from a high damage weapon can be harder to counter. While faster weapons dish out more DPS it is easier to protect against due to the fact that you can react in increments.

    This is however obviously not true in cases where the timing of the hit isn't important at all and your mana pool is crucial, or if the swing time keeps resetting (which in most cases is balanced by higher damage on the weapon). From my experience, faster weapons have higher DPS and are there to drain your mana pool or prevent you from acting, not actually there to deal the killing blow.

    I think that the latter versions of Darkfall have been looking way to little on other games. Look at the source for some MMORPGs that are out there (think there are at least 4 different games, multiple servers), all might not be applicable but it might give a decent direction. Reinventing the wheel completely tends to land you with something square.