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Combat changes and new armor, next up on the Public Test Server

Discussion in 'Design Discussions' started by kilrain, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    As you all know we've been testing new armor values on the public test server for a while now for adding in new mastery robes and mastery leather armor to fill a void for players choice on what they wear. After making multiple changes to armor protection and encumbrance values we did get them into a position that is very close to being balanced across the board, but there are clearly still some similarities to a rock vs paper scenario which we don't want to add.

    When we first decided to introduce the new armors we were going to recolor the existing armor for the new tiers and this is where the original release date came from. Since then we decided that recoloring old armor would not do the game justice and decided we would make new armor models instead. This is taking a surprisingly long amount of time to complete, however, and this has forced us to take a closer look at what we have going on.

    Another problem, allowing players to wear mixed sets which is something that a lot of players have loved about the game doesn't work on the current PTS setup. In order to fix that we need to either change the numbers more, requiring more balancing or create an advanced set of bone armor to fill the void. That would probably still require more balancing.

    After a lot of discussion it has occurred to us that if we proceed with this change as-is we cannot patch any combat changes until the new armor is complete as the new balances require it and waiting for the new armor to be completed before we fix the combat isn't fair to you, the players. We also realize that after all these changes we'll end up coming nearly full circle to where we were before with new armors added, so what we will do instead, starting this weekend, is revert the combat back to where we said we were going to after the polls. You can view the polls here. We will then spend time, shouldn't be near as long as adding in new armor, to get combat back to where it use to be without the poll options like self buffs and such. Once the balance is back where the players like it we will be able to patch without requiring any new armor. At that time we will put the new armor back on PTS and adjust their values to fit the old combat, rather than making other changes to fit them. Then we can set those changes aside until the armor models are complete.

    We feel that this will give both the vets who prefer the old armor/combat and others that would like more options like robes and leather what they want. The best of both worlds. We can take the time to create the new armors in full without sacrificing in their quality in order to get the patch out.

    We realize this seems like a big setback, and in some instances it is, but the reality is we're still very new to the game development scene and we're learning as we go. We appreciate the support we've been given and will continue to try and grow with you as we keep the DFO dream alive and expand on it the best we can.

    TLDR: we're reverting combat to before the first big combat change so we can get it patched in and will put new armors in to fit the old style when the models are complete.

    Thanks for reading and have a good weekend!
     
  2. JEDIMind

    JEDIMind Frostjarl
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    There a eta window for when combat will be going back to normal on public?

    As the part where you said you missed the deadline cause you decided not to just recolor armor but make new armor is the kinda stuff you should tell us..I for one am more understanding about missed etas if you give legit reasons like those.
     
  3. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    It just wasn't announced on the forums. We'll try to get better communication through here again. For the ETA, let's get it going on PTS and tested to make sure we're doing it right and we'll patch it in.
     
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  4. BeatIt

    BeatIt Obsidian Golem
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    tx kilrain
     
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  5. CaptainAmerica

    CaptainAmerica Air Elemental
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    Sounds good, do it up.
     
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  6. JEDIMind

    JEDIMind Frostjarl
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    btw on that combat poll is everything above 50% going in?
     
  7. NonFactor

    NonFactor Forest Golem
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    i dont even remember well what we're reverting at this point but i think im happy cuz it should be better than current one.

    ps: my wife got pregnant in january and looks like my daughter is coming first than TCS expansion.
     
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  8. BeatIt

    BeatIt Obsidian Golem
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    the only bad thing is needle spam whit r90.. its gonna be great
     
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  9. JEDIMind

    JEDIMind Frostjarl
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    just looked at it and personally theres a few in there I would change..but as long as it's fair I'm game. Honestly we should not even have a vote and just have LBS pick what should be kept and what should go.
    --- Post updated ---
    20% casting time /
    But by the looks of it we get 4 bow damage back to heavy armor.
     
  10. NonFactor

    NonFactor Forest Golem
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    shrapnel?
    battlespikes?
    longer other buffs?
    40% backhits?
    self buffing?

    what more?
     
  11. BeatIt

    BeatIt Obsidian Golem
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    its already in game atm, only needle missing

    bow damage that is
     
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  12. JEDIMind

    JEDIMind Frostjarl
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    I know you probably are sick of hearing this Kilrain but is it possible to full revert? Just think logically about this..having people pick stuff to buff and nerf...Then putting it all together and see if everything is balanced as a whole...Then probably more testing and tweaks...why not revert to where we are 100% sure the game is balanced?

    like picking out of a hat and hoping everything is gonna fall in place.

    Also..I think it would be easier to balance armor around old encumbrance system no?
    Old way was just more encumbered you were less damage to magic and bow..seems like armor would be able to mix and match better with that system.
    Then maybe make it were if you wear 4 pieces of this kinda armor you get this kinda bonus..so will give people the want to use a certain gear set ( bower, mage, and melee ) but in reality you can see do whatever you want and make your own sets.

    If you're interested to hear more Kilrain I could hop in discord and explain how it would work a lot better with the old way. Think of mage armor for example..the better the armor gets the lower it's encumbrance will get and higher pros. Pretty simple
     
    #12 JEDIMind, Jul 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019
  13. Inositol

    Inositol Obsidian Golem
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    So this...
    Is not this:
    I read the tl;dr, got my hopes up, and now.. meh.

    Reminder: The only reason any of us are here is the combat. Change everything else, and stop "tinkering" with combat. When any other part of the game is remotely fun, then maybe bring up combat.
     
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    #13 Inositol, Jul 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019
  14. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    Think of it like this, we'll revert and then test other changes to see if it works out.
     
  15. JEDIMind

    JEDIMind Frostjarl
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    No I get it.
    but think of this...
    revert and we don't have to see if it works out...we know it will. Despite what anyone says about AV, they had the most balanced DFO so far. I'm telling a man..balancing armor around old encumbrance system might work out better then you think. Should look into it.
     
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  16. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    We are going back to the old encumbrance and balancing new armor around that, that’s the point of this post.
    --- Post updated ---
    This is basically the list of things that could potentially be different based on the polls and my opinions on them. These are just my opinions and rely on feedback for making changes not just my personal opinions. Feel free to discuss them, but lets not argue.

    For battlespikes, we've been discussing adding a different item. Basically copy light battlespikes so we can adjust the cooldown and other values separate from the siege tool. Then people are not spamming them and we don't have to nerf throwing just to fix it.

    Self buffs are more complicated. Remove them and you have to figure out how to improve the protections of a mage without improving the protections of a destro. People don't want the tedium, but that happens to be the only downside to self buffs. I'm not a fan of something without a downside because it removes choice. So if I were to vote, like I would say not remove them and not combine them. Make people cast them all, make people grind every level. Perhaps when they're all maxed out a new skill is unlocked that has all the protections, a new grind.

    Buff others: these have never really been balanced so we need more ideas on them tbh.

    Back damage: ?

    20% reduction after casting: Maybe a decrease? It's one of those things that's nice to have, but maybe 20% isn't necessary.

    Armor protections equalized: Revert it. There are damage specific mobs in the game and it creates choice and options for adding extra protection against specific mobs.

    WOF in the aoe group: I don't see why not keeping it there. It's a powerful spell.

    Needles in r90: ?

    Something not on the list I think we need to increase the unsheathe time for shields a bit. Continue to allow parry to be queued, but not so 'instant' after performing actions with completely different weapons.
     
    #16 kilrain, Jul 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019
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  17. Animal

    Animal Eodrin
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    You can only let a kid ride an old dog for so long before the legs give out.
     
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  18. Adopted Manchild

    Adopted Manchild Goblin Warrior
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    You have done every balance change in such a dramatic fashion without any reference to any successful game. If you want balance, you titrate problem areas, not hack and slash every single issue by sweeping amounts. You go several months without a legitimate amount of communication (no, telling your community to be on your discord is not a substitute by any means) and now 95% of the population is playing Apex, LoL, or Mordhau in place of this game waiting for any form of content that would bring players back. You have offered virtually nothing comparable to what competent companies have done. Did you guys set out on this task aiming to fail? Because that's what it looks like.

    Full revert. Small changes. Open communication. And for the love of God, put in some fucking interesting content. If PvE wasn't so god damn dry in every single way, maybe this game would stand a chance.
     
  19. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    We realize mistakes were made and are trying to rectify that. Let’s not complicate it further by dwelling in the past. Let’s make combat great again!
     
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  20. Kael Trighton

    Kael Trighton Deadeye
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    Like at this point I'll put in my 2c and say I don't care about the balance, put in the new content and let us sort through it. Reason being- I don't think the game can survive in a limbo like this for long before it gets into a population death spiral.

    Yes the core darkfall combat is essential, but all sorts of games have good foundations but switch things up from time to time to shift metas and keep things interesting. Things like balance patches to address objectively weak weapons would make things interesting and take little effort.

    Throw in some new armors and let the balance be crazy and all over the place for a while. god forbid things would feel new and different for a change. Darkfall isn't held back by class A vs class B, everyone can do everything so no one will be left out if balance gets wonky.

    Everyone playing has been playing so long now that we basically haven't seen anything remotely new since 2009. Who cares if things get crazy, its fun, its new, and it can be adjusted as we go or removed if necessary.

    The robes are probably fine, they aren't as darkfall-iconic as the mixed metal sets but they come with the perk of being an easier gear set to put together (1 piece instead of a dozen). The new leather armors should be switched to being lower encumberence (around current bone) so they can be mixed with metal to create new mixed sets for mages and archers. Robes can overlap as an alternative low encumb option besides leather and be given their own built in caster perks-duration, spell haste, mana eff in exchange for lower resists. Medium encumbereance should be made by mixing leather and metal, it doesn't need it's own line of armors.

    So if there are 5 high encumbereance high resits mastery metal armors, and 5 low encumberence, low resist mastery leather armors (ie advanced bone armors), they could be combined to make mixed sets like the ones people currently like to use. Robes fill in as a full caster/support/glass cannon option that are quick and easy to make and put on, and have built in enchants like spell haste, duration, or mana eff. That sounds like a fun dynamic IMO.

    PS LOL @ 'upping the total number of new armors from 3 to 13 is taking a surprisingly long amount of time.' This is a head scratcher for sure. Try putting in one armor and see how things go and then move on to armor 2. Dont go from 0 to 13 wtf.
     
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