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Combat Paths - Adding Clarity to the Discussion

Discussion in 'Design Discussions' started by MWTaylor, Apr 27, 2018.

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  1. Battle Smurf

    Battle Smurf Oak Lord
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    I'd rather have new and interesting builds than perfect balance where everyone is the same spec for 10 years and i guarantee you the vast majority of normies agree

    AND without appealing to a wider variety of people this game is doomed

    If we want a healthy population obviously changes and personal sacrifices have to be made
     
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  2. Frog

    Frog Black Knight
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    DF needs to embrace its niche, not try to be a poor man's version of every other MMO. There are many changes that I support to help increase population: better NPE, network/computer optimization, GUI rework, graphics updates, quests/pve improvements, storyline/lore, etc.

    Making improvements to those areas but changing combat/roles is the ultimate exercise in impotence.
     
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  3. Andrew

    Andrew Eodrin
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    That's what we are doing actually, we're improving the combat but not changing it entirely. The combat needs more variety to be more interesting and appeal to more players. The freedom to do all pretty much is going to remain as a core element however the specs available will give more options to define personal play style which is actually one of the biggest complaints we get in feedback. We've already added more content in champions, new weapons and weapon mechanics, added a new village capture system, new group pve content with scaling, new rare ore spawns, new housing materials, new chaos chests that are damn good to open :), tons of tasks, titles, markets, new blessed tools, etc. We've added a lot to the game and not to mention countless qol updates as well and WE ARE CONTINUING to add not stopping to do nothing but combat changes.

    We've got territory control which in and of itself adds PvP, PvE, politics and conquest goals. Then there's dynamic housing, artisan skills, mob bounties, advanced crafting tool/gathering specialties, endless tasks to add, social hubs/games, new quest system and mechanics to add more dynamic interesting quests, lore has a lot of ideas and new things going into future updates... to name a few.

    We can't push the magic button and get it all in it will take time, progress sometimes can be jarring but this is why we get you guys involved. We made a promise to the community to listen to feedback and we do. Combat we promised not to touch and focus on other areas first as we agreed it was lacking least compared to other areas. It has been just over two years since we first got the code and started actively developing RoA. Those who have been patiently waiting for combat changes and a new evolving combat meta are finally getting a turn at bat. The masters of the old meta get a rare opportunity to help shape the next, join us in progressing the game forward to the future :)
     
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  4. ijharb

    ijharb Chosen of Khamset
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    You keep saying the core gameplay isn’t changing, but then when people ask you about certain spells being removed or withheld unless specked into, you admit that will be the case. Which is obviously not leaving the core gameplay alone. If the jack of all trades hybrid doesn’t have access to all the spells what’s the point?
     
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  5. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    What you are referring to is not core game play.
     
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  6. Frog

    Frog Black Knight
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    This is a matter of opinion of course, but it’s not unreasonable to make that claim given how unusual Darkfall’s jack of all trades system is. The skills you have available are a core component in how the game is played. You want to restrict the # and/or effect of skills therefore you are changing how the game is played.

    If you want to dance around the issue using semantics that’s your choice - but it seems counterproductive in a forum dedicated to substantive feedback
     
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  7. ijharb

    ijharb Chosen of Khamset
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    Actually it is.

    You really just continually prove just how out of touch you are with the combat in darkfall, and what direction it should be taking.

    Please just bring a few members from the community on to the team for combat changes so this isn’t the end of df. Like Rex, and scrubby.
     
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  8. Isaac Clarke

    Isaac Clarke Varangian Warthane
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    Are you serious? I'm going to get flamed for saying this, but how out of touch can you possibly be?

    Any PvP'r currently playing does not want any of this

    Even if any vets ever return, they're going to be baffled and confused by the direction you're taking
     
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  9. Shieldbreaker

    Shieldbreaker Undead Dwarf
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    Do not mess with the combat. Buff up underperforming spells, perhaps slightly nerf must-cast ones, mayhaps mess around with transmuted staves a bit.

    Definitely do not remove any skills/spells from characters.

    I am all for some more veeery slight specializations like destroyer, a support spec would be fine too, but do not go classes. Rock-paper-scissors is a terible idea and a big part of the reason no one liked UW.
     
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  10. Not_Primetime

    Not_Primetime Infernal
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    I think you missed what they mean by "core element".

     
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  11. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    No one ever said anything about making classes. Will a player be able to create a class? Sure, but we're not making it so you can click a button to become something specific, you'll be able to build your character into it and make it specific to what you want. As it is right now if someone wanted to 'build' a class they can technically do that, but it's not optimal and far from balanced compared to what people usually play.
     
  12. Grimtide

    Grimtide Evil Eye
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    You know what would be cool? An all BPG employee pvp tournament.

    pre combat changes ofc
     
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    #132 Grimtide, May 4, 2018
    Last edited: May 4, 2018
  13. MWTaylor

    MWTaylor Black Knight
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    We will have a community focus group open to all, including yourself, where you can provide all the feedback and play testing results that you want while being able to interact with the developers and game designers.

    For me personally though, the core combat mechanics of Rise of Agon are high-twitch FPS combat with a very high skill ceiling, full loot mechanics, friendly fire, the need for team coordination, and the freedom to play how you want. Adding more options to specialize your character to cater to the kind of play style you enjoy does not go against that core in my opinion, rather it adds to it.

    And for those thinking we would be locking all these spells and skills out for hybrids, that is not the plan at all. At this point in time we have not even finalized if anything would be locked out at all, and if they were, it would be a small amount of skills/spells.

    What does this ultimately mean? Out of the hundreds of spells and skills in game that exist today, and assuming we add in new ones as well, IF we were to lock anything out at all the plan would be a select FEW (emphasis on few) to provide some differentiation and diversity for those who specialize.
     
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  14. Frog

    Frog Black Knight
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    Even if you aren't locking anything out you are still going to get locked into the rock-paper-scissors sinkhole if the specializations have a significant increase in effectiveness for the skills they affect. You are creating classes. Just because there is no button called "Ice Mage" that increases your effectiveness with water spells does not mean that you haven't created a class like by giving us a limited # of specialization points. It's so pointless to get bogged down into these kind of semantics when the ultimate effect is that you are introducing classes in the game, with or without hard locking of skills/schools. Not only do I think this is bad for the game but it just seems like such a horrible decision for you and your staff - you must be masochists to subject yourself to the balancing nightmare that this will bring.
     
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  15. Grimtide

    Grimtide Evil Eye
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    To add

    Think about how valuable personal feedback of playing the game, unrusting, then duking it out live in stream will be for bpg? First hand experience, there s no substitute for it. I for one would not be bothered at all if ALL work stopped in the game for a week so that the entire team could do this and gain valuable insight into how the game actually is from a player's perspective.
     
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  16. Shieldbreaker

    Shieldbreaker Undead Dwarf
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    So make it more optimal, instead of locking stuff behind classes and making rock-paper-scissors scenarios.
     
  17. MWTaylor

    MWTaylor Black Knight
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    If you go to an extreme in how specializations affect the power of your character then sure, I would share the same concerns as you.

    But we are not planning for that to be the case. If I am "specced" one way that is at a disadvantage to another person's "spec" I should still be able to beat them if I play better. That is the beauty of Rise of Agon - player skill is what is most important.

    The people on the team working on these changes actively play the game and actively PvP, so that would be a waste of time.

    Now actually testing these changes - that will be invaluable to both the team and to the community.
     
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  18. Gaius_Octavian

    Gaius_Octavian Goblin Warrior
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    I'm doing my best to reserve judgement until you actually give us something to test. I will say, however, that if you lock any ability behind a spec it will be a massively alienating mechanic. You will never hear the end of it.

    Also, as Frog said, this will be a nightmare for you guys. If the specs are too strong, you have to deal with rock-paper-scissors, which no one wants. If they aren't strong enough, they won't even be used. Do you actually believe you can find that perfect balance point in a game as complex as this?
     
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  19. Grimtide

    Grimtide Evil Eye
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    Disagree wholeheartedly on it being a waste of time and I call bullshit on team members playing actively. (Who?)

    Actually think about it and consider it before you seem it a waste of time. I think that it would not only be highly beneficial for feedback and insight, but highly entertaining for both the team and the playerbase/community.
     
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  20. Andrew

    Andrew Eodrin
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    By your definition we already have classes than with the current specialisations. So what's the issue with expanding the specialisation choices we have available now?

    Can you take side step and double jump?
    Can you take indestructible and cast high end spells?

    Destroyer adds 40% damage, that's a pretty crazy amount, how is this ok and not a class based on your own definition?

    We understand the community's concern about the removal of the freedom of complete hybrid choices both the other revival and dfuw removed with titles/classes. We like the original combat style design and will be adding choice and diversity, not gutting it for a lockout system. The basic intention of combat paths is to overall weaken effectiveness a bit on all combat and then offer specialisations to increase effectiveness in various ways to some or all combat styles. The intention is to make players choose between doing it all at a moderate level or specialising into some areas to make them more powerful and keeping the others weaker.

    The goal is to not lockout spells behind specs specifically but to have power and variety. Some specs may alter current skills and spells effects but the intention is to maintain the ability to do all with the option to specialise. This in raw essence will be a fully fleshed out spec system very similar to the rudimentary one currently in place.
     
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