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Debuff Balance

Discussion in 'Game Design Discussion' started by DarkGhost25, Jul 2, 2017.

  1. DarkGhost25

    DarkGhost25 Black Knight
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    There are several issues I'd like to address regarding debuffs. "Front loading" was added to the game to buff player stats at lower levels in an effort to lessen the gap between noob and veteran, this in turn completely ruined certain debuffs that used to be valuable. Pestilence in dfo was very popular, especially amongst destroyers, a back hit was devastating. Due to front loading a back hit is close to irrelevant, you are better off shooting an arrow or pushing melee.

    Spell reflect really hurts destroyers (ironically) since opening a fight with one of their few debuffs will result in them being debuffed themselves. A mage counters this by opening with a field aoe, a solution which is lackluster imho, a destroyer can't feasibly open with a debuff without using rend, needles, etc first, which basically makes debuffs pointless in most cases. This further reduces the shallow pool of options destroyers have at their disposal.

    The next issue is the spell Adept, which effectively nullifies Tongue Rot. This was okay in dfo because that iteration had innate spell failure which scaled with encumbrance, now Tongue Rot is largely useless unless you can catch someone unbuffed (in which case it is devastating).

    Magic protection penalty debuffs are rarely ever used in pvp. Being able to build around a certain school is interesting, especially with the new specialty staves (which don't seem to work but one day should).I think @Aristos Giannes can provide more feedback on this as he was one of the few players to take advantage of such spells and staves prior to the staffcrafting changes (pretty sure it was him).

    Characters have a built in protection versus debuffs and it is very rng based. You can burden someone 10 times in a row and it can be resisted all 10 times. This adds rng and luck to combat, a well aimed debuff should be rewarding and effective because you are sacrificing immediate damage and pressure. Here are my solutions to these issues, these are my personal views and I do not expect everyone to agree.

    1. Change attribute penalty debuffs to a percentage of magnitude/effectiveness, this will circumvent front loading and allow the spells to function as intended. Health, stamina, and mana penalties would be added as well (equivalent to how they used to be). This will allow destroyers to have a larger breadth of debuff options and in some cases mages may opt to use them as well.
    2. Make spell reflect only affect non-debuff spells. The meta of opening with a field aoe to remove debuffs is clunky imo, it would be better for everyone to decide tactically how they want to open a fight and sneaky debuff hits would be more intriguing.
    3. Change tongue rot to a casting speed slow. Spell failure is op but if it's going to be in the game it should not be counterable by a buff, that is really way too easy and requires little to no skill. Alternatively, instead of a casting speed slow we could keep the spell failure, but rng is generally not a good thing in skill based games. We already have a melee and archery slow so I feel that a casting slow is reasonable. This does affect transfers, witches brew, begone, etc so it could be very powerful if the penalty is large. If spell failure is removed we can cleanly remove the Adept spell as well.
    4. Increase the magnitude of magic protection debuffs, at least against players. They should be a niche option versus the powerful meta debuffs like slow and slashing protection.
    5. Remove innate debuff protection, eliminate rng altogether. Debuff protection can be added to certain armor or jewelry but would be a reduction in magnitude and not complete nullification. The Spell Immunity spell would work the same way.
    Please add any feedback you have on debuffs, this is being covered in multiple threads so we might as well consolidate everything here.
     
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  2. JEDIMind

    JEDIMind Black Knight
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    I liked these ideas alot. You're still missing range and melee slow. I have no problem with what these spells do but they last way to long. Got into a fight with someone that knows what they were doing...first spell Wof...then melee/ranage slow...no panacas...what the he'll am gonna do when they last 8mins..

    Wanna solve all debuff problems...

    a spell that removes debuffs in GM or LM with a 2 mins Cd. Gg
     
  3. DarkGhost25

    DarkGhost25 Black Knight
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    Thanks, man. It's something I've been thinking about for a while and debuffs are one of my favorite things in the game, choosing debuffs as a destroyer is one of the only things you can really customize atm and right now it's in a bad place. Slow and delayed shot are problematic as well, when debuffs can last over 10 minutes it can put you into a position where you just might not want to fight at all. I think you can block debuffs with your shield, right? I think that was patched in during beta but I never actually tested it.

    A spell in LM or GM that can remove debuffs would need some careful balancing, maybe a slow cast time and expensive stat cost, because it might be a bit too good if you can easily remove debuffs, I would hope that debuffs wouldn't become obsolete. I do like the brutality of debuffs in a sense, it feels really bad to get hit by them, I'd like it to remain fairly brutal. That said, debuff durations should probably be toned down, 2-3 minutes sounds reasonable to me, not too high, not too low.
     
  4. Grimtide

    Grimtide Evil Eye
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    Destroyers have several options to take off spell reflect, one of which is mana blast and another is mana missle.

    The meta is not opening up with a field aoe unless you mean icestorm, to take off spell reflect either. Eyerot is much better or just intentionally whiffing an r90/magma so you don't burn your field aoe c/d. Also, a destroyer casting debuffs on a mage is a pretty bad idea because he can debuff you much much worse ;p

    I think that the elemental debuffs are great as it is, it's just a really niche playstyle. I definitely would love to incorporate it into my playstyle.

    I agree that burden is verrryyyy RNG and almost never lands, it's a pretty insane spell if it does land though. Completely cripples a mages DPS and a destroyers archery dps as well.
     
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    #4 Grimtide, Jul 3, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
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  5. DarkGhost25

    DarkGhost25 Black Knight
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    I forgot about eye rot, oops :D I used to often find little tricks to land debuffs on mages, usually catching them completely off guard. I would agree that trading debuffs is not advisable :p Elemental debuffs could use tweaking imo, some schools don't have as many elemental damage spells as others (earth for example), so naturally these debuffs are more viable in schools like fire or air. Just my opinion :)

    I agree that burden is extremely strong when it lands, it's so much rng though that it needs an overhaul.
     
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  6. WyLd_SyDe

    WyLd_SyDe Spellgazer
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    I'm fine with the whole spell debuff meta thing but debuffs should be situational advantages not completely won fights. Decrease the potency and duration of burden, tongue rot, and melee/range slow imo.
     
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  7. DarkGhost25

    DarkGhost25 Black Knight
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    I agree. Keep debuffs brutal but don't make them automatically win fights. I'd really like to see all rng removed from the game, tongue rot is one of my favorite spells but I think it really needs a change, burden is pretty cool but has the same problem. Slow and rapid shot are pretty damn powerful, I wonder how they should be handled because they are some of your big rewards from the water school and choosing to invest in magic. I think it's about a 37% slow to the front but haste gives 90% attack speed, it might be good to normalize all of these to 25%, that's still very powerful imo.
    --- Post updated ---
    I just tested Spell Immunity. At rank 75 it gave 90% debuff protection. I mean... what kind of crap is that? Fail rate = 90%, totally broken for sure.
     
  8. RootedOak

    RootedOak Oak Lord
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    I think with some testing you'll notice that 0.9 does not mean 90%.
     
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  9. DarkGhost25

    DarkGhost25 Black Knight
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    I tested it a bit and every debuff was failing. Even if it's not 90% it's still a mess of rng, which seems to be a theme with debuffs. I'd rather it be more skill driven then decide fights based on luck.
     
  10. Fenrir Frauki

    Fenrir Frauki Windlord
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    IMO they should add a witchcraft debuff that removes buffs, and a spell chanting buff that removes debuffs. That would make things interesting.
     
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  11. Aristos Giannes

    Aristos Giannes Cairn Giant
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    We've done a few tests with the new staves and they seem to still work roughly the same, but something did change. At higher magnitudes it seems like they hit much harder than they used to after a debuff, and the lower ranks barely seem to help at all except in PvE. There is still some kind of inherent armor penetration. For r50s it seemed to be about 20%.

    I definitely agree all of the stat debuffs need to be looked at again. It's backwards that hitting a noob with one gives you more reward than hitting a vet.
     
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  12. apophis

    apophis Goblin Warlord
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    would like to see max debuff duration reduced to ~1-2min, rage remove debuffs(high stat cost, everyone has it), SC other buff that removes debuffs. i have a feeling a self cast cleanse without a 5min cd like rage would make debuffs worthless
     
  13. thorinhood

    thorinhood Skeleton Archer

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    I think Debuffs should also be parryable (reduced magnitude)
     
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