Welcome to the Rise of Agon Community

Create an account today to engage in discussions and community events on the Rise of Agon forums.

Discussion: Design Statement and Road Map

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by MWTaylor, Oct 8, 2017.

  1. GrimReapiN

    GrimReapiN Chosen of Khamset
    Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2015
    Messages:
    796
    Likes Received:
    562

    Actually, the reason you were attacked so infrequently was due to the low population in the area.

    A simple concept that is true: the more people you have in a game, the less beneficial fast travel becomes. The opposite effect is true when there are less players. Thus we see fast travel rampant in single player experiences.

    That's not to say fast travel is completely out of the question in multiplayer experiences, but the fast travel options should involve player interaction, which with these runebooks there will be none. Portal hubs will be the best option.

    The only PvP in darkfall was not reliant on hotspots, but I agree that for the current state of the game, there are:
    Zero hotspots
    Minimal fast travel
    Minimal population

    That's a recipe for disaster because the result is minimal pvp, minimal player interaction, which leads to everyone believing the minimal population thus making population smaller.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
    MikeJT and quietnoobz like this.
  2. MikeJT

    MikeJT Black Knight
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,156
    Likes Received:
    581
    Yes. And the sad thing, is that fast travel, as I've stated numerous times, and as occured back in DFO, suppresses population growth by making it easier and easier to hit progressively lower tier spawns.

    When the top 10 PvPers on the server can visit and gank half the server in 3 hours, it gets harder and harder for anyone to get anything done without getting killed. You move away from that area? They'll find you in 1/10th the time.

    People complaining about no PvP when in reality the reason why people are hard to find is because THEY DON'T WANT TO BE FOUND.

    I found an entire enclave of noobs when everyone was saying there was no noobs. They're not going to advertise their position they were enjoying living in _________ and farming in piece without outside interference.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
    kingp43 likes this.
  3. RootedOak

    RootedOak Oak Lord
    Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2015
    Messages:
    3,031
    Likes Received:
    4,077
    Because there was no fast travel to the area, true. However, there were 4 different alliances that started on Cairn. Only the problem was, Brutal opted for Mirror Sea for the chaos portals, so they left Simiran technically (although frequented Cairn as our only opponents). Whoever it was at Izkhand left Cairn because there were no portals off of Cairn, so they had to retreat to blue towns due to Brutal camping them all day. Calf was Sinister/Legio and they essentially quit the game because they tried to live out of Calf with no portals to go anywhere. SB owned Serruk as one of the first holdings captured in game. Then they lived on mainland because it took too long to get to Cairn.

    We were able to live in Dayar because we had the best portals on the continent which included quick access to Wolf Lands and a portal inside our city that lead to a 40k per hour boss mob rotation. I think I died 4 times before I finished my character in the most profitable area of the game. Not because I was well defended, but because rarely did anyone come to our spawns (all around Vakrah).

    So there were two major portals off of Cairn: one to Human Lands and one to Wolf Lands. So we ultimately spent more time elsewhere looking for fights. Other than those two places, the travel time was incredible just to get to some of the populated areas.
    --- Post updated ---
    I don't know why you keep parroting this when it's simply untrue. Especially considering the proof that the portal chambers essentially kept DF1 on life support for the whole 2 years of no patches. There was honestly no reason for the game to survive, but people sieged day after day for some reason. I wonder what that reason was.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  4. GrimReapiN

    GrimReapiN Chosen of Khamset
    Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2015
    Messages:
    796
    Likes Received:
    562
    True, and the issue with that is alignment. Not fast travel. If a player wants to travel to low tier spawns so be it.

    From what i understand, your crusade is against vets destroying lower end players with no penalty. I may be reading into it incorrectly, but i think fast travel isn't as much of where your issues lie as it is the alignment, which is equally as god awful atm. Well, worse actually.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  5. helgrik

    helgrik Infernal
    Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2015
    Messages:
    598
    Likes Received:
    352
    That portal network
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
    RootedOak likes this.
  6. Sorrow Avaritia

    Hero

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    2,125
    Likes Received:
    1,277
    I like the look of the road map, some good ideas, however how do you plan to actually get a good population?

    It is a niche game that only a small % of people will play so it will need to be shown to a lot of people to get a good enough population, the only reason I don't play any more is because there just isn't enough people.

    I know I said it a long time ago but I really think that a name change is needed, the name Darkfall is currently multiple games, 2 of which have shut down, 2 which are competing against each other and some other random games that have nothing to do with Darkfall Online.

    I really think Darkfall needs to be removed from the name of the game to avoid confusion and to avoid people that already know about Darkfall Online and Unholy wars instantly turning away from it because of bad experience in the past.
     
    MikeJT likes this.
  7. MikeJT

    MikeJT Black Knight
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,156
    Likes Received:
    581
    It's not so much a crusade as a warning.

    If the stated aims of introducing more fast travel is so people can find more PvP, then I don't think it will meet the stated aims once people start using fast travel to travel all over the map.

    What it will do, when the pop increases, is suppress population growth by forcing people into fights they can't handle.

    As soon as your city is known to be active, people will be hitting it constantly. Eventually people will get sick of it and move.

    This happened with portals in DFO and I'm certain it'll happen again in this game.

    I don't think the effect will be as strong this time with the grind and power gap reduced, but that's only part of the problem - there's always going to be some low skilled players. If they can't win at PvP, and there's nothing left for them to do in game, the what do they do?

    They quit.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  8. Donut

    Donut New Member
    Hero

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2016
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    4
    Loving this design statement and road map. You guys are taking this game in a great direction, keep it up!
     
    mirim likes this.
  9. Mycke

    Mycke Obsidian Golem

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    1,052
    This has always been an issue in DFs where the bottom 5% of the skill tiers can never win fights and thus left with no other useful purpose in the game and thus are left with no choice but to leave it and every so often there is a new 5% making for an ever increasingly distilled player base.

    Like you say I also believe the new reduced leveling and smaller gear gaps will make this less of an issue, a lot of it had to do with character and gear gaps, but nothing can be done for skill gaps.

    To me the solution is to have some function in the game that you need to sacrifice pvp ability for to be good at so there is something no pvper would do but is needed in the functioning of society and the obvious thing would be crafting. I really think there needs to be some add on or trade off for people to be crafters that costs PvP viability to make it a unique non pvper profession so those bottom 5% arent forced to leave at all.
     
    MikeJT likes this.
  10. MikeJT

    MikeJT Black Knight
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,156
    Likes Received:
    581
    Well.. if that bottom 5% expands to be the bottom 50%, it's not as much of a problem, because safety in numbers.

    Darkfalls issue is it truncates the bottom of the bell curve.

    It also wouldn't be a problem if players of all skill levels were evenly distributed among clans, but that would require some clans give up power and self regulate to ensure any particular group of players doesn't become too powerful.

    Planetside 2 handled that problem by rewarding players with large XP bonuses if their faction was unpopulated. However that doesn't work with Darkfall as smaller clans are generally the more elite anyway.

    Simply put, for fast travel to really benefit the game, we need a lot more players, in which case fast travel becomes unnecessary.

    The best way we can make the game more casual friendly, is to increase population to create scarcity which drives conflict. And the best way to increase population is by increasing the number of meaningful non-PvP tasks for players to do so even if someone isn't good at PvP they can still feel like they're getting somewhere.

    Literally hundreds of players pre EU transfers did little but gather for hours in DFO.

    Now gathering is faster, most people do it themselves.

    Ships take much less to build so there's less demand for those base resources.

    What people called "tedium" was literally what was keeping hundreds of players subbed, because it made them feel like they were contributing, even if they were horrible at PvP.

    I had 280 ping for a substantial part of DFO. Still played though despite being gimped in PvP. Why? Cause I could contribute meaningfully.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  11. Quin Tessence

    Quin Tessence Black Knight
    Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,209
    Likes Received:
    761
    At this point its probably safe to admit that three things continue to destroy Darkfall in every iteration.

    - Lack of options
    - No sense of direction
    - Too many idea's

    In a perfect world that road map would get worked on day and night and get hammered out without a problem in 1 year.
    That is not going to happen because no one is stepping up to take on responsibility for the state of the game.

    When a games active population becomes an "issue" its over, fineto, finished.
    Games are a form of entertainment and all forms of entertainment die off because every other source of entertainment is in direct competition.

    The entire point of this project was to bring back Darkfall and it was successful. Now a project has no goal bigger then the sum of its parts and people just are not interested.

    My suggestion to help BPG is sell off all the assets and work to any competition interested and move on to the next game that should be brought back. Unholy Wars Reboot with BPG style mods would draw in a lot of interest and again sell off your work to start another game and another... Its the only way you can do what you love without fighting the market.

    This company is not in the entertainment business it is in the Game Restoration business, but it just hasn't figured that out yet.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
    quietnoobz and The Cannibal like this.
  12. The Cannibal

    The Cannibal Akathar

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    175
    smart business decision should have been reboot of dfuw. more new player friendly. bpg thought by relaunching dfo would bring back 100k subs lol
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
    #72 The Cannibal, Oct 10, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  13. MikeJT

    MikeJT Black Knight
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,156
    Likes Received:
    581
    I played DFUW for about 20 hours over two 1 month subs. First at launch and again a year or so after that.

    It was horrible.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
    Dixie Normus likes this.
  14. Pink Taco

    Pink Taco Black Knight
    Hero

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    1,123
    Give the top pvpers a spawn worthy of fighting over - they will leave the not so worth it spawns alone. Every spawn being about the same means they should be everywhere, because the loot is the same everywhere.

    Make a golem dungeon with 4 chambers and a 4 spawn of each golem type in each - selentine - veilron - neithal - leenspar.
    Add 1 Theyril Golem to the mix at the end. Amplify this theyril golem's loot. See if the top pvpers hold it down or 20-30+ man zergs. It would be exciting for both sides. Profitable for both. I assure you in prime time the zerg's would hold it and the top pvpers would hit it for pvp and late at night the top pvpers would sneak in to hold it down when they can.

    Shit like this is so basic to me, I've seen it in the games Darkfall was originally created to mimic nearly (AC/UO)

    Do you think the top pvpers would be out hitting the noob spawns with this valuable of a place to contest? Do you think the zergs would not enjoy farming in 20+ man groups for safety... and still have loot worthy of obtaining for that size of a group? Do you not think that 1 place like this would be much more enjoyable to know you get get loot or get pvp 24/7 no matter what time you went rather than waiting for timers - villages/ sea towers/ land towers whatever the fuck you wanna name off? This is one idea I've spouted off for years that would give this game a reason for group farming for the first time ever. Also promote pvp constantly.

    Tell me I am wrong, please. If the idea is there would be too large of an influx of rare ores... then change the loot tables, or debuff mines even more so (so people have to go out and do something rather than afk gather their gear) or... how about not controlling the economy by respawn timers - wasting peoples lifes away waiting at a dead spawn for a huge amount of time getting bored out of their mind.

    Noone plays a game to be bored. They need shit like this, and shit like this is the shit that they admit to ignoring all through out beta.

    Quest chains to go to higher tier areas via recalls? Why does this not exist? You added those damn afk harvest islands. Add some shit that keeps you active and slaying monsters and or people. Noone wants to slay rocks and fucken trees.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
    kingp43 likes this.
  15. Sero

    Sero Menhir Sentinal
    Loyal Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2016
    Messages:
    7,532
    Likes Received:
    9,615
    Dude stop trying to argue with that guy. He still thinks its DFO grind and vets roll around noob spawns to get r20s and banded. Dudes delusional. Theres like 100 people playing the game because theres 0 reason to siege and 0 transportation around the map and he thinks everythings good.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  16. Pink Taco

    Pink Taco Black Knight
    Hero

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    1,123
    Not arguing with him, using his statement to propose - yet again - a great idea for the game.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
    MikeJT likes this.
  17. Sero

    Sero Menhir Sentinal
    Loyal Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2016
    Messages:
    7,532
    Likes Received:
    9,615
    Well theres your problem! Great ideas arent allowed here!
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  18. Pink Taco

    Pink Taco Black Knight
    Hero

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    1,123
    Put my idea in center dungeon - see where it goes, revert back if it makes things shitty - replace current spawns in the rooms with golem spawns listed - leave lil undead shit on the way to em.

    Meteos - Ayan Baquar - Bang.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
    The Cannibal likes this.
  19. MikeJT

    MikeJT Black Knight
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,156
    Likes Received:
    581
    You're not wrong.

    Edit: but big issue with creating a mega spawn is when it isn't challenged, it supplies far too many goods into the economy for very low risk.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
    #79 MikeJT, Oct 10, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  20. Slayven

    Slayven Eodrin
    Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,073
    Likes Received:
    1,082
    Cool idea