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Discussion: Lawful, Pvp, Full Loot

Discussion in 'Design Discussions' started by kilrain, Jun 12, 2019.

  1. Featherbeans

    Featherbeans Infernal
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    Whoever can't deal with gear loss should not play darkfall at all.

    It's like DayZ mod and you have an L85AWS (which was the weapon with the only legit "thermal" scope in the mod) and an anti material AS50 in your backpack.
    You are stacked, you are ready to go.

    And then you lose it the 1st time - it's fucked up.

    But that's where the fun begins.

    Behind a big risk there could always be a big reward.

    If you don't like this dichotomy, it's better to try another game.

    That game could be Darkfall the undead zombies: autochess...
     
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  2. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    Different genres, different expectations. There's a reason no holds barred MMOs don't work out.
     
  3. Fawley

    Fawley Infernal
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    Yeah. Darkfall has released like 5 times now trying to do full loot with no punishment now and it's failed everytime. We can all agree that it didn't fail because of combat. You also can't say it failed because of bad PvE content because nobody that's into PvE is going to stick around with darkfall with the current loot mechanics.
     
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  4. Featherbeans

    Featherbeans Infernal
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    Which leads us to this.

    DF1 was a game launched in a rush.

    By the looks of what we can find in Agon, there was supposed to be some other systems other than Races, Clans and Alignment.

    I have no inside info but there is a lot of shit missing from the original idea, for sure.

    I already mentioned in this forum that the norwegian devs conceived DF to be like UO on steroids.

    What I would have done 3 years ago or whenever BPG started would be talk to the original devs and ask them what content was envisioned that was never released.

    Those guys are still alive. It's never too late...

    Just my two cents
     
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    #84 Featherbeans, Jun 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
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  5. Fawley

    Fawley Infernal
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    UO was an entirely different game though. I've never played UO but I am guessing that there's no way that player skill will outclass player gear/stats in the same way that darkfall is. Also UO was made in an entirely different time. That roleplay shit just doesn't fly with the current demograph of players that play online MMORPG's. Back then it was a bunch of nerds that wanted to interact with each other like a online DnD. Nowadays you have most players striving to do the best of the best strats and the other players being forced to keep up or just die every single time and have no fun at all.

    Also lets not pretend like the AV dev's were some kind of misguided geniuses. A lot of shit they did was beyond stupid and naive. I, among many others, think they just fluked out on the combat system.
     
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  6. Featherbeans

    Featherbeans Infernal
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    @Fawley I'll start reading your posts when they get paragraphed by serendipity.
    :D
     
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  7. FirstNameLastNameRpIsCool

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    Your view on UO is very narrow if not completely wrong. I have probably played with around 15k (guesstimate) different players over the years, probably seen 50 that did any kind of RP. There are however RP only servers, never been on one and they do not tend to be popular.

    Game was utterly skill based depending on what kind of server and PvP you played on, granted the skill set requirement was different, but still very challenging.

    At least when I played, which was about 9 years ago.
     
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  8. Auron

    Auron Celestial
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    Someone for me try to kill rise of agon.....lol
    The idea of kilrain to add some safe zone...its not bad....for new players...
     
  9. Oresmacker

    Oresmacker Obsidian Golem
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    Are you saying there shouldn’t or should be? Sorry your English isn’t very good.

    How many times have you been running around the outskirts of sanguine looking for pvp?
     
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  10. Fawley

    Fawley Infernal
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    All I'm saying is that the players or players mindset in regards to MMO's is very different. My experience with Runescape is that way and I'm sure UO is no different. Also fuck off saying UO took as much skill as Darkfall and was as unpinishing as Darkfall. I've never heard of UO being a gank fest like Darkfall is and has always been.
     
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  11. Featherbeans

    Featherbeans Infernal
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    Where did he say that?

    OMG....
     
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  12. Auron

    Auron Celestial
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    Sorry prof. my english isn't very good....
     
  13. FirstNameLastNameRpIsCool

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    Not sure if you are trying to put words in my mouth or if you really wanted to respond to my post. If you wanted to respond, you should probably re-read it as nothing of what you said is in my post. I'll actually respond to what you wrote before dropping this.

    All talk below is in reference to the last UO server I played and the ones I've played in general, rule set of the servers could be very different.

    I would say mentality is similar.
    I can't speak to the Runescape mindset, but I do believe "hardcore PvP" mindset is similar in any full loot(/punishing) game that you try. I would most likely say that it was a bit more of a "GG"-mentality after the fight. If hostile groups fought, then it looked very much like it does here. I would say that DF is more hostile, and definitely so on the RoA forum.

    My stance on skill is the same, it required a lot and that was obvious in tournaments. I wouldn't quantify it and compare it to DF, WC3, CS, DOTA or Hearthstone as it is apples and oranges.

    Small (15) size fights were more common, large scale didn't come close (but large scale in DF seems to be dipping dramatically).
    Gank fest (that I didn't mention) were probably smaller, the regular size that I had on my last server were pretty much groups of 15. They happened about 20-40 times a day. The organized FFAs were in the numbers of 50-80, they happened every or every other week.

    DF is more punishing, mainly due to the clan mechanics.
    I would say that DF is more punishing, but mainly due to the clan warfare and holding mechanics. Rest of the rule set was very similar. There has been enough people that lost gears they farmed for a month due to a recall on the wrong rune, or lost everything they own because they befriended the wrong person or forgot to bank their key.

    This discussion doesn't belong here but there are a lot of things we could learn from UO, even in regards to this topic. Quite silly coming out swinging against a guy with less than 30 posts, especially if you miss.
     
  14. Scrubby Bear

    Scrubby Bear Eodrin
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    Darkfalls greatest downfall has always been its lack of content so much more so than its pvp ruleset. Even if you turned off pvp entirely the game still wouldn't retain non pvp players because there isnt a single God damn thing to do but pve. The housing system sucks ass and had virtually zero customization. Pve is horrible in dfo. A lot of potentially cool features like boats and clan cities are instead extremely bland, unfinished feeling and have zero customization. There's no fluff features like painting pictures, playing board games or writing books.

    Those should be the focus first. Fill in the gaping content and fluff holes. At the end of the day it's far more important to give people things to do in the game. Especially now when the pop is so bad your pretty much 100 percent safe farming anything anywhere anyways.
     
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  15. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    Retaining new players will be far easier if they can enjoy that content with new rules. Many people don't try the game because it's open world full loot pvp, content or not. It's not like I want to change the rules today and start advertising. I want as much as we can get so it's more a complete package.
     
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  16. Dunnin

    Dunnin New Member

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    @kilrain
    One thing you can do is set your eyes on the industrial type players. Crafting is absolutely safe and your crafting system is quite decent. I like the changes a lot. You have also improved gathering. Why not add a few more tools for these players like mules or something and create a full game play for them. So someone can come here and focus on gathering, crafting, selling. Make it interesting for him. That would not affect anything else in the game for now, boost pop, income for you. It's a win win as far as I can see.
     
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  17. ZeuZ

    ZeuZ Crypt Guard

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    Only thing you guys can really do for a dramatic change in population would be a loot drop change. Full loot= no market for population, hence why the population is and will always be super low. It could have the best graphics in the world, best siege performance, top notch pve content and the second a casual/noob player looses all his stuff its uninstall the game.

    We are pretty much a dead breed of gamers (love full loot). I honestly love the combat and open world feel more than I care about full loot at this point in DF's life. Would I give up full loot on death to no loot on death? As it stands now, I would totally go with it to see what it does to the population. There is only so much you can do to try to attract and retain more wolves in a game made up only of wolves. If you want to survive, its time to think outside the box or fail like the others did in DF history.

    And no I would rather not let DF die off instead of that type of change. Combat is too good with such a high player skill cap that it would be just a shame. At least those of us can always say we played the hardcore version "back in the day" lol.
     
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  18. Fawley

    Fawley Infernal
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    A lot of these guys would rather see darkfall die than see the looting rules change for non-pkers and newer players in newer areas. Really makes you think.

    If we look at other successful games. Runescape has more or less full loot PVP but in a dedicated area. You are free to join this place for PVP or for the higher profits found there but you don't have to and this provides the game a lot of "sheep". Then you have Black Desert Online which has open world PVP with no real restrictions outside of towns once you have leveled up past the "tutorial" stage. This game however does not have full loot at all but people can still get killed all the time regardless and is successful. Why can't Darkfall go towards the middle ground here with open world pvp everywhere but have limited looting rules for specific areas and based on if you're the PK'er that's initiating the fights or if you're a sheep just trying to make a living.
     
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  19. Sainguin

    Sainguin New Member

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    Lurker here, long time MMO player, just want to throw my two cents in on this issue.

    You need to change full loot. It's really that simple.

    You basically have two options at this point:

    A) Keep going with the current state of the game, listen to the tiny population who don't want change, and let the game die.

    B) Implement some changes, do a marketing push, and hopefully breath life into this game.

    You've already outlined WHY this would work and even given some great examples of games that do mixed full loot PvP and are doing great because of it. Albion Online and EvE are the blueprint. Follow it. Quit asking for feedback, quit asking your playerbase of fifty people what they want, and do what you KNOW needs to be done.

    I'm sick of watching full loot MMOs flounder and die. There's a reason most of them do. All of the evidence is in front of your face. You absolutely have to foster a non-PvP community of gatherers, crafters, and yes PvE in order to sustain an MMO like this.

    I can't stress this enough, LOOK AT ALBION. It did it's F2P launch recently, did a massive marketing push and people fucking love that game. It's doing amazing. You know why? Because they completely understand how to foster their community to provide a great basis for PvP. They have a great system for allowing players to slowly become part of the PvP community through their zone system. They have small scale PvP in the form of arenas and hell gates, each with their own meta. That game is succeeding for a reason and every bit of it is laid bare for other developers to follow.

    Be completely honest with yourselves. If you got even half the population Albion did on it's F2P launch, you'd be breaking out the champagne.

    The first time I tried DF:RoA I fell in love with the combat, the world, and the skill system. I immediately fell out of love when I got ganked by some assclown in insanely better gear while I was killing goblins. There is literally nothing about that that says "Hey! Keep playing our game!".

    I can only imagine how many others have dropped this game in the first area for the exact same reason (guarantee you guys have some kind of internal metric on this and it's probably not good). I have no issues with full loot PvP. I have every issue with straight up greifing new players and basically erasing their ability to progress in a meaningful way.

    I know I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but I honestly can't stress it enough:

    ALBION.

    EDIT: I'm gonna reiterate why Albions zones work so well. For anyone who doesn't know the game this is how they work:

    Blue Zone > No PvP
    Yellow Zone > PvP No Loot
    Red + Black Zones > Full Loot PvP

    And guess what? The Red/Black zones are the most populated and almost always have something happening in them. You know why? Because players are able to learn the game and build themselves up in the Blue/Yellow and then naturally migrate into Red/Black for the PvP/loot/better resources. It's a beautiful, natural progression, and it works. It works wonderfully.

    It works so well, the game can't even handle all the people playing it.
     
    #99 Sainguin, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
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  20. Oresmacker

    Oresmacker Obsidian Golem
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    I have a mixed opinion on this but how do you battle 1.5k wide siege systems, asset, and griefers (there are many ways outside if just killing someone) in a zone that has no consequence for dying?

    Also, most people are farming high level gear. Y’all do realize the leenspar golem and erodach for example will never be a safe zone right? Does anyone actually have an issue farming Q1-Q3 mats and selentine golems with an issue with getting constantly jumped? Are people expecting to farm Q5 bags in safety? I just don’t see the full logic here.

    I do think we need safe zones that’s are wider around the main cities and starting areas, but at the very least mid map, and the outer continents need to be full loot like all of darkfall has been.

    If BPG does implement safe zones, vets will abuse them to whatever advatanage they can. So hopefully it’s well thought out.. lol.