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Discussion: Lawful, Pvp, Full Loot

Discussion in 'Design Discussions' started by kilrain, Jun 12, 2019.

  1. Sainguin

    Sainguin New Member

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    You like many others that replied, seem to have completely ignored what's been said and also completely misunderstand the point of this discussion.

    This isn't about current players. This is about changing the game in a way to insure new people come to the game and stay. This is about improving the early game in a way that leads into the late game.

    They've also addressed how sieges would work and how they could change alignment to function in a way that deters griefing.

    You're not seeing the full logic because you're approaching this as someone who already plays the game and is past the point that this would effect you. This isn't about you or anyone else that is established. This is about saving a dying game from itself by looking at the actions of similar games and trying to replicate what allowed them to be successful.
     
  2. Featherbeans

    Featherbeans Infernal
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    What about do some kind of system that makes players be able to pay for insurance on gear, like Tarkov.
     
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  3. Oresmacker

    Oresmacker Obsidian Golem
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    No, new players coming in actually have an issue farming? I really just don’t see how.
    Especially with rune books, portals shards being pretty expensive. Most of not all vets are going to port to where PvP is or where the high end gear is. The chances of actually running across someone new farming sarlids in wolf lands is so low it’s not even funny. Also, I’m not against areas like this being non full loot, so don’t get it twisted. But to say Someone isnt playing because you are getting jumped at low end spawns seems pretty radical to me. No one even runs by those spawns hardly at all. There is a heat map on where all the PvP is.

    Most vets don’t even waste time running anywhere. I can see noob vs noob PvP being a thing at some point, but as of right now no.

    Also when I say noob, I’m not talking about vets that have been playing since DFO and still haven’t found out how to be competitive besides crying on the forums.
     
    #103 Oresmacker, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
    Methodico and Korag like this.
  4. Korag

    Korag Evil Eye
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    is a reason people come back to this game for pvp other than being mostly fun combat system. The full loot is what makes this game different, now you can make some areas safe from reds so long as a red can defend himself without penalty I am fine with that mostly. But removing full loot in open world? Removing the interest of middle map because no more cities? You are talking awful lot like you wanna make the game like every other game out and there are 0 games that are rewarding pvp wise that have no loot. They are fun for a few until the new wears off but nothing compares the the rush from pvping knowing you can lose it all or win it all it is what separates this game from all others and without it you would lose 70% or more of your base including those thousands that wanna play but are still waiting for the game to be finished. I am down with some changes to bring in new blood but man ya gotta be careful or this game means nothing. Not to mention the backing you guys got on this game came down with the knowledge you would not be making drastic changes to combat which you have already done and would do further by removing full loot.
    --- Post updated ---
    Just so I am clear. If a red person attacked a non red person, if the red died then he could lose most or all of his gear but the non red or blue person could lose little or no gear? I mean maybe in a very very limited area but were talking about darkfall here and this is not what it was built on. I am all for some changes to help bring in a new crowd but this would cause a huge drift and or loss in the base that has kept this project going and helped to get it started based off of promises from BPG. That is too extreme in my opinion.
    --- Post updated ---
    Just so I am clear. If a red person attacked a non red person, if the red died then he could lose most or all of his gear but the non red or blue person could lose little or no gear? I mean maybe in a very very limited area but were talking about darkfall here and this is not what it was built on. I am all for some changes to help bring in a new crowd but this would cause a huge drift and or loss in the base that has kept this project going and helped to
    This is about current players because anything done to this game greatly effects them in fact it is more about the current player base than it is the imaginary new crowd that may or may not be enticed by these changes. You do not cut off your head to spite you're nose. You find ways to make changes that can lure in new blood while keeping the blood you have nice and happy.
     
  5. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    I don't think you fully understood the changes proposed or read much of the discussion in general.
     
  6. Sainguin

    Sainguin New Member

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    Your other replies show that you clearly haven't read a single thing discussed in this thread about the changes proposed.

    Read my first post in this thread. I'm not advocating for them to screw over the old playerbase or remove full loot. I'm advocating for a better system to bring in more players. There's a middle ground here.

    I'm gonna beat this horse to death, but look at Albion if you haven't. Look at their PvP. That is EXACTLY what DF:RoA needs to be doing. It's a proven system.

    Here, let's do a quick test. Name all the successful full loot PvP games. I can.

    Albion.
    EvE.

    Guess what they have in common? Tiered PvP zones.
     
    #106 Sainguin, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
  7. Featherbeans

    Featherbeans Infernal
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    Attention you said GAMES, not MMOs:

    Two games without even a forever loot vault like Darkfall:

    DayZ Mod
    Rust
     
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  8. Korag

    Korag Evil Eye
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    Also do not have an fps style of combat which puts them on an entirely different level, it is not skill based they attract a much different type of player. Talk about reading? I simply disagreed with your assertion that this is not about the current players and is in fact quite the opposite. I have played Albion and while it has its own type of skill involved it is nothing compared to the skill of aiming every hit and even if you kill someone you may end up with nothing for the time spent. Albion is an ok game but it appeals to players for so many different reason and the type of game Darkfall is it could never cross over and do the same things. DF is one zone sure you can make imaginary lines and make them safe and I have never advocated against doing this. I caution bold moves that impact the player base and the game itself, they can go in the direction of other games that are unique in their own way but then darkfall is no longer unique and is just copying other. Eve and Albion are unique but you think the answer is to be more like them? they themselves are nothing alike.
    Please do not assume I have not been reading and to assume my post had anything more to do than responding to the absurd statement of "This isn't about current players."
    --- Post updated ---
    Please explain how I do not understand? Just because someone looks at something different than yourself and also looks at the consequences and future of what is being looked at does not match you're own does not mean I did not understand. I have played many different games, I even play 1 that has no loot in it from time to time and while it is fun for a bit it quickly becomes stale. Same with Albion, people go back to the game off n on as I myself have done. It has some fun and unique style of play that most of which does not translate well into darkfall a FULL LOOT PVP MMO a unique game like Albion or EVE they are unique for a reason the difference is not how they made they're game the difference is the staff they have and money behind it to push it forward despite being unique and challenging. Fact is no games like them exist to compete so they do well due to lack of competition. Darkfall has many holes that need plugged + the fact that 90% of the gaming world have never even heard of it. Or they happened a crossed it around launch when you guys could not keep people from losing several hours worth of time put into the game and wrote it off not because of the game itself but because of the incredibly bad exp. they had losing several hours of invested time..

    I do understand fully well what you are proposing I played UO from 97 til the day Darkfall launched and know it as well as anyone. The game is fundamentally different. Some things would translate well while others would be a massive waste of time and energy. Factions being one of those things that would have allowed for lot of fun in a more controlled environment but instead you guys choose to go with removal of race wars and a still today flawed and broken alignment system which still today annoys people and pushes them away from this game.

    Again my position on it is one of caution cause while it might sound good to try and be more like Eve or Albion. It will not work out like you think, the grass is always greener on other side of the fence until you cross over and look back. Change can be good but the items proposed will backfire if implemented and specially if when implemented has many bugs like many other systems that you have added to ROA

    sorry for the wall in first post, have a headache and speed typed without proof reading.
    --- Post updated ---
    EVE is not just successful because it has pvp. For one it is the only game like it on the market atm so if ya wanna play a space mmo with some semblance of pvp that is the only choice.
    Albion is entertaining in short bursts but gets stale quickly and also seen a massive drop off in players. Difference between Albion and Darkfall? Millions of dollars in advertising and dev time.
     
  9. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    I say that because the complaints you raise, like I posted here, do not correlate with the proposal. Nothing was said about removing cities in center map, in fact I mentioned increasing the lawless size of the middle to fully encompass those cities rather than having the ones lingering just outside the boundaries.

    Full loot would remain in lawless areas, be adjusted depending on alignment in lawful and the areas surrounding Sanguine would either be a)no loot or b) no pvp.

    In regards to the combat style, that's a different discussion entirely. There will be players that wont want to play because it's not tab-target, but that number is far less as can be seen by the rise of more action based MMORPGs becoming more and more popular. I firmly believe the combat would attract way more players than it rejects because not only unique, but done really well. The biggest detractor for combat isn't the core of combat (the style, physics), but the lack of diversity in builds and to a high degree the ability to learn and use anything at all times. But like I said, that is a different discussion entirely and I don't believe it has anything to do with the full loot aspect at all.

    When you consider games that are open world full loot that are successful they are not mmorpgs and the permanence aspect that comes along with them is completely non existent.
     
  10. Synna

    Synna Black Knight
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    I haven't read the thread nor will i probably, if full loot is removed from any part of the game i personally will no longer play it, thats purely my opinion and $10 a month nothing more nothing less.
     
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  11. Shieldbreaker

    Shieldbreaker Deadeye
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    Most important bit, keep to your promises and don't let your ego get the best of you, would be silly to let a 3rd Darkfall die due to that.
     
  12. Korag

    Korag Evil Eye
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    I did not mean physically removing the cities but you did mention making them weekly events and this in effect removing them as far as guilds having control over they're territory either because they built it up or spent the time, money to take it from someone else. They lose the city because they lose the choice.

    You cause loss of interest in mid map because you mentioned territory control only on the islands and this decision based on what I am reading is being done because you want to make or keep safe zones and like I said I am not totally against safer areas for players so long as reds can still use the area and are able to defend themselves without being penalized.

    There are no games that are open world full loot and that is what distinguishes darkfall from the rest of the game world. Why that should be developed on rather than trying to make it into something else. Make safe areas but do not make the game into someone else's game let it keeps its identity,

    You are wrong about why people want full loot in part. I have played and loved the game because I knew when I went out that my gear was on the line. I liked the risk vs reward aspect, sure losing the gear sucks but risking it the feeling, the rush those are things that make this game great. Removing that feeling takes away the excitement and being fps totally matters in this, maybe not in a more direct way but it matters because most of the game that are not mmo's and have full loot are fps style. The millions of people that play other games that are full loot are proof of that. This is what you need to expand on this is the gold mine that you need to exploit and because NOBODY else is doing it. Watering it down and taking away what makes darkfall great only serves to make it more like everyone else and people are getting tired of the same ole theme park no excitement style of game, that is why so many games as of late have spawned that have full loot along with death.

    Use what you have and expand upon it, make it more enticing by developing the game we have rather than trying to make it a game we choose not to play.
     
  13. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    The cities in center would remain the same. What I was referring to were the cities in lawful areas. TCS isn’t going to work out in lawful areas so it was a thought if what we could do with the cities on mainland lawful.
     
  14. Andrew

    Andrew Obsidian Golem
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    Just to answer this one I tried for literally years to reach out to the original Devs early on. With the exception of some minor information they either weren't reachable or uninterested in continuing any work on this franchise. I even offered consultation fees but it never amounted to anything. We've had to pretty get everything up and running by ourselves minus a very brief overview early on.
     
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  15. Methodico

    Methodico Stormgraive

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    The problems for a new player are:
    Tedious key bindings (no preset, difficult to understand, too much keys)
    Tedious bag making too many things, 4 weapons minimum, too much
    No events on map, no people in cities so the world seems empty
    There Is not Freedom, everyone same armors, same weapons, same spells spam, same sex......
    Then there Is the part when you try to understand the combat, and after one years of duels and bag loss maybe you have the chance to have fun in pvp.
    I think that understand the combat Is the hardest part, why make other things harder?
     
  16. Korag

    Korag Evil Eye
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    Too many weapons could be a learning curve but I do not see it as a problem, it wasn't a problem with df1 for the thousands of people playing.
    The rest I mostly agree with the game even if not dead gives off the impression of being dead
    Understanding a game regardless of the play style or pvp can take people a long time, ROA is not the only game with a curve and the combat curve is ok even more so now with the removal of most game progression, it gives people something to work towards and not all players require a year to achieve I would in fact argue that most learn the combat within a few months as much as they ever will. People will refine skills over a longer period but that goes with anything anyone does over a period of time. Nobody does anything perfect right away and the longer they do the same things the better they refine themselves.. Much like weight lifting as an example, you can get big but ya ain't gonna get big and cut overnight
     
  17. Featherbeans

    Featherbeans Infernal
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    The only thing I was alluding to is content tho.
    Ofc if you bring to the table something in the lines "would you be interested in helping us" that does not help.
    Have you asked them to give you a big picture - no pun intended - of the content that is surely missing?
    Of what their ideas were that never came to fruition - content wise?
     
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  18. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    There are websites with interviews from 2002 that go into a lot of detail. I've been through them all, both back then and recently, and there is a lot missing that if implemented most of the current players would hate it.
     
  19. Featherbeans

    Featherbeans Infernal
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    Like what?
     
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  20. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    Of the top of my head skill caps with skill decay (use it or lose it), opposing magic schools.