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How to make RoA accessible to a broader player base

Discussion in 'Game Design Discussion' started by Mycke, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. Mycke

    Mycke Obsidian Golem

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    I think the main problem is the 'footprint' of the best players is too large and makes the whole world too high tier PvP and too high a barrier to entry for playing the game.

    The basic concept here is to make the outer edge of the map (Subs and islands) the place all the best players and clans want to be, thus creating breathing room on the mainland for character and player skill development (make the best fight the best and let everyone else fight each other) and ending up with a quasi noob lands and a vet lands.

    The Mainland:

    Make the whole mainland lawful (except villages or invading someones holding) and move the center dungeon to skull island. Take the red mobs out of the center and leave it mainly yellow and orange (maybe leave 1 champion). Take the mines and distribute them to the best cities so kholesh, Aradoth etc all have a mine (have maybe 3 of each kind on the main land only).

    The rest of the outer map:

    Make it all always lawless and give every city a mine and most hamlets a grove and make it all good mobs so the holdings and farming on the subs is considerably better than the mainland (including places like Seelie, put good mobs there).

    The portals:

    Remove all except leave one on each side of each Sub leading to the portal for the sub in that direction (like one by Quica to the north one on Cairn and one by Caxul to the east one on Niff) so each connects with the one on each side. None on, too or from the mainland just linking the subs.

    The result:

    The strongest will all leave the mainland and fight for the best stuff on the edges while all the newer, weaker or still up and coming fight over the mainland and hone their skills in a more fun environment.
     
    #1 Mycke, Jun 24, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2017
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  2. nightblighter

    nightblighter Akathar
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    I understand the why of this suggestion, but its obvious that BPG has gone a different direction by keeping separate house recalls and adding the portals. You know this is never going to happen on RoA. I am excited to see how well this works on DND though.
     
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  3. Crunchbert

    Crunchbert Undead Dwarf

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    If they want to make new players stay they need to make it easier to compete as a nub.

    Now theres different ways to do this, all of which could have a big impact on the game. But. Thats the tradeoff of trying to keep players.

    Cuz currently, theres so many factors on why a nub will get dunked. Worse character. Worse gear. Much lower player skill.

    I've played "skillbased" mmo's before, but this one wins the award for biggest possible difference in skill. Most otheres you can at least learn the basics and not be complete trash (at least maybe put up a little bit of a fight). But in this legit you can learn what to do and practice and still get worthlessly rekt. Which will make most nubs quit.

    And no carebear fest mainland with no good mobs is going to change that. They will still go to the islands, get dunked, and quit cuz they cant compete.

    I feel like removing the b hopping and other "cancer feeling stuff" would help (nubs completely hate the crap) but obviously that may have a big impact on the game that players dont want. And honestly, pretty much everythign about df pvp feels liek cancer to any new player lol, so thats hard to get around. Luckily im not a dev so I dont need to make any of these decisions.
     
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  4. Mycke

    Mycke Obsidian Golem

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    I disagree with this part, the point of a game is too have fun an if they are having fun on the mainland why would they quit? The problem as i see it is they dont get to taste many early victories and though you might see it as giving everyone a gold star, having scrub v scrub pvp means everyone wins sometimes and that is more important to the game than anything else.
     
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  5. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    I played Eve Online for many years, it's definitely one of my favorite games of all time. One of the aspects to it that helped it gain players over the years was it's empire space and providing an area where players didn't have to constantly look over their shoulder. It wasn't necessarily safe, but a vast majority of your time was spent fairly peacefully. I don't how to correlate that feeling into Darkfall exactly, but I am thinking about it constantly and have a few ideas.

    More on topic I like the premise and in a sense we'll be accomplishing some of it over time like making the more dangerous areas more profitable, more desirable. I don't think it's necessary to increase the size of the lawful areas, but... making them more newbie friendly would be my goal. I don't think making travel time between mainland and the islands longer will make a difference. People who want to be on the mainland killing new players will bet here for that regardless.
     
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  6. Crunchbert

    Crunchbert Undead Dwarf

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    This is true I guess, I've had plenty of fun just killing mobs so nubs could do the same.

    The problem is there prob wouldnt be nub v nub pvp, they would still get jumped by maxed mage vet guy. Cuz red dude who wants to kill nubs still will unless they make begin red totally suck. But then nubs still wont get nub pvp, cuz they wont pvp cuz they would go red. The only way to have lots of nub v nub pvp would be to have a lot of new players so they are more likely to run into one. Which I'd like to think we have, but feel like we prob dont. Its just so hard for nubs to get into pvp when everyone else knows what they are doing.

    They almost need to find a way to lower the required skill and stat floor without messing up the skill ceiling. Cuz right now I can 1v2 my nub friends, but still get dunked by better players 1v1. The skill gap is just so huge, its hard for nubs to ever run into someone they can compete with without massive grinding and pvp practice. Nubs need to be able to at least do partially ok just from watching vids and knowing what to do and aim, and not need to duel 1000 times in a guild. Cuz not every nub wants to join a guild and duel 1000 times. but currently nub in his scale with a mob dropped weapon is just a free kill, and you dont really get better from losing that bad.

    What could be useful is if there was a tutorial that maybe directed them to good informational videos on pvp mechanics and stuff. Combined with possible more frontloading / buffing lower tier items the nubs might stand a little more of a chance. But understanding the game mechanics is def the biggest part. And pve alone doesnt prepare them for that.

    I'm not saying to make the game ez mode to lower the skill ceiling. That might just ruin the game, cuz how its played. I'm just theorizing on what might be the way to increase the nub retention rate.

    Ya I support this idea. Cuz makign the world and lawful areas and stuff bigger to make it more safe will be really bad if the player base goes down. Cuz then the world feels dead and more people quit. The world is already really big, if the player base goes down could be bad. But making more hotspot like areas would promote the good players going to them (instead of killing nubs) and will make the game feel more alive even with a lower player base.

    Something they could consider tho is making a couple newbie dungeons like the sewers, where its technically not safe but you cant really get inside red. I wouldnt want them to be op safe zone farming spots, but as a newbie dungeon where they wont get killed could be a good idea. Especially if nothing inside is actually good farm, it wouldnt be that op.
     
    #6 Crunchbert, Jun 24, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2017
  7. Sero

    Sero Menhir Sentinal
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    Any FPS player quickly picks up Darkfall, any MMORPG player crys because they don't know how aim/not stand still. Tutorials do wonders.

    The problem with Darkfall compared to other games, is that it's not other games. Thats why we play Darkfall. Thats why Darkfall has "died" twice and has come back again.

    Skill gap means nothing. Anyone complaining about getting dunked on, is just sad that they can't be the ones dunking. Someone who actually enjoys Darkfall will have fun being a meatshield in full heavy armour.
     
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  8. Obeesho

    Obeesho Frostjarl
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    A game god could pick it up quickly I am sure. For the rest of us 1000 duels is a good starting point for getting good.

    Honestly I don't see a problem with that.

    If you take that away from Darkfall it might as well be any other game I don't care about or play.
     
  9. Sero

    Sero Menhir Sentinal
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    This fucking guy is like 50 years old and he's still schooling you children. Fucking get good. LOLOLOLOL
     
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  10. Crunchbert

    Crunchbert Undead Dwarf

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    The problem is that the game has died twice. Not a good sign.

    Meat shield kid will have fun till he was solo (cuz lots of nubs are solo players) farming and then meat shielded for nothing and died putting up very little fight.

    The difference is most games you can get good by playing, not by continually playing a private game with ur friend to practice for more time then you actually spend playing with other people.

    Lets just use PUBG is an example. You can press play, get dunked, and press play again, and get better. You dont go play a private game with ur friend to run around and "practice" so that you dont get dunked when you actually play.
     
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  11. Sero

    Sero Menhir Sentinal
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    Hmmmm. Sounds like you want an FPS Arena. This is an FPS MMORPG.
     
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  12. Crunchbert

    Crunchbert Undead Dwarf

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    No I just want to get real fights out in the world not fake fight duels :p I dont expect a press play fight here, but that wasnt the point. The main point was that you dont get good by playing private practice games in other games.
     
  13. nightblighter

    nightblighter Akathar
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    PUBG has the same problem as Darkfall but worse. You run around gathering gear for 10-20 minutes and then a fight lasts seconds and you are probably dead. It is worse in PUBG because you can't duel to get a feel for the guns. Counter strike has a deathmatch mode which you can play to practice your aim which is awesome, but the closest parallel in Darkfall is duels. There is no version of Darkfall possible where duels won't be the best way to learn the basics of combat. Anything they put in that gets people out in the world will involve vets dunking on casuals or zergs dunking on smaller zergs and the losers will always have to go back to the bank and build another gear bag. Duels circumvent all that. Of all the complaints you could have about Darkfall, dueling as a way to get better doesnt rank anywhere.
     
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  14. ZeuZ

    ZeuZ Undead Dwarf

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    Yea its difficult to try to mesh a game like Darkfall into the current gaming culture. You have a game to where you don't have to aim with a zillion people (wow), then you have DF where its primarily aim and full loot. You can go from DF to WoW and be good, but you cannot go from WoW to DF and expect the same outcome.

    I think thats why you have a lot of fpsers playing DF, it just suits the playstyle nicely. Add in some MMORPG stuff and you get some other types trying it out. Hell im old as shit compared to most and I love DF, but my background is all quake 3. I can't imagine someone from wow that all he had to do is hit tab to aim for him to come into DF and actually aim lol.

    Now to hit the current broader player base? The instant gratification generation as I call it, typically would demand a faster skill rate and less pk around noob zones (talking to actual noobs that tried it). Only thing that I can think of would be to remove all the hamlets near starter zones so making killing a noob more of a chore than profitable. But at the end of the day DF still takes a certain type of player and mindset to keep playing it.
     
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  15. Kietharr

    Kietharr Goblin Scout

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    I've said it over and over again, there just isn't a penalty for being red once you're developed and have a few friends, that's the core issue with alignment in this game and it has been that way forever. Even if you piss off anti-PKs, what are they going to do? Kill you? Dying in PvP isn't that big of a deal for a developed player in a clan but it's absolutely miserable for a new player who is farming goblins and trolls to get a footing.

    The basic way you do this is stat or skill loss for death of reds while in lawful areas. Keep in mind that all reds are gray in lawless lands anyways so there's no need to punish them for murdering or dying out there, that's where they belong, there is real estate in the game designed for their use. There just needs to be something that provides a disincentive for reds to go into these safer, lower profit areas just to torture the poor scrubs stuck in the limbo where they don't have newbie protection but also aren't even close to pvp ready. The power gap between characters is massive and the learning curve is too steep for there to not be stronger game mechanic barriers between developed and new players.

    But before you do any of that, the entire process of going red is broken. My deaths iirc are something like 10 deaths to blue opportunity PKers and 2 to reds, one of which was in lawless land anyways. Being able to farm mobs to get what is basically a free ticket for a PK is just stupid. We need both a short term and long term alignment score, where the more total PKs you have racked up, the longer you should stay red after murdering someone. Alignment should slowly decay to 0 over time (more slowly the higher your total murder score is) and getting positive alignment should only come from killing reds in lawful areas, with both stat loss and alignment gain being proportional to how negative their alignment is.

    If you make it so that alignment resets to 0 after losing stats you also remove most of the potential for farming alignment on red alts as well if that's a concern.
     
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  16. WyLd_SyDe

    WyLd_SyDe Spellgazer
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    I get tired of sero's edgy 12 year old tone but him and obeesho have a point. What is your obsession with making darkfall more appealing to a wider player base? So we can have more n00bs logging on then eventually quitting? Fact of the matter is this game appeals to a certain type of gamer, one that's competitive and enjoys mmos... dumbing down center map won't change anything in the long run, certain people will like the game and stay and certain ones will get mad about losing pixels and troll the forums, is it even worth the risk of alienating EVERYONE to try and find a middle ground? It's been this way since the moment the game was launched, some people will always live on their knees and expect things handed to them while others will struggle and claw their way to the top (or middle). I don't think adding gimmicks and denaturing the map is ever going to change that
     
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  17. Mycke

    Mycke Obsidian Golem

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    The game is so easy when you are in a/the top clan on the server, thats not how everyone else sees it.
     
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  18. WyLd_SyDe

    WyLd_SyDe Spellgazer
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    The game is anything but easy for me, I was grandfathered into dune rats because I kept in touch with Jonah over the years and people somewhat remember my name from dfo, that's it. I've basically had to learn the game from the ground up all over again. I was used to being top of the food chain in dfo and now I'm shit all over again. I would argue that's harder to deal with mentally than the other way around but I digress. Mycke I admire your passion but I loathe your outlet for expressing it. You cajole and argue and honestly lack all objectivity. Be honest with me for one post and one post only and answer this question: would your day tomorrow honestly be affected negatively if darkfall died all over again and you were "right". My guess would be no, you are foaming at the mouth waiting to be proven right when history has already proven you wrong. Why do we need to change this game to appeal to a bunch of wow shitters who can't be bothered to set up their binds and watch a few pvp videos? They won't stay, they won't contribute, what they will do is cry on the forums and leave the community a little shittier on their way to the next flavor the month "hardcore" mmo.
     
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  19. Poetent

    Poetent Goblin Shaman

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    I have to disagree with you there. When I started DF again, I knew I wasn't a top tier PvPer. I was pretty decent at FPS, but not a god tier player by any means. Dueling has actually increased my gameplay to a higher standard. The more I duel, the more I understand my mistakes. The guys I've been dueling against do not hold back any punches. And the fact that I'm dueling in a hamlet, means I have to push myself even harder to try and survive throughout the duel, just incase we get jumped by reds.

    The feedback that is provided on how I can improve, on what I did wrong, is the point of duels. Fighting people that don't provide you feedback, and continue to dumpster on you, is only going to frustrate you, and give you the opinion that you currently have. I am that meat shield player. But that's my preferred role. Thanks to the duels, I'm capable of at least attempting to hold my own, depending on the individual that shows up and tries to box with me.
     
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  20. Sero

    Sero Menhir Sentinal
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    Wait... You kinda fucking do. Are you high?
     
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    #20 Sero, Jun 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
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