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Increase the TTK

Discussion in 'Game Design Discussion' started by RootedOak, Jul 28, 2017.

  1. MikeJT

    MikeJT Black Knight
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    With what? Melee? Or spells?
     
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  2. EarthMother

    EarthMother Earth Elemental
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    If they decide to do the smart thing and add combat like DnD...then the ttk may not be as big of an issue. Devil is in the details but we really need multiple viable playstyles to have fun combat.
     
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  3. Animal

    Animal Eodrin
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    @EarthMother You're out of your element here. Go play ND if you truly think that. The combat is amazing and doesn't need build diversity. It just needs to be tweaked to remove the inconsistencies that remain.

    @MikeJT Both. We have better aim than most anyone... so we land spells on our way into melee and finish in melee because we have a good stickyback. (When I'm destro, I usually don't even bother going into melee because the mk archery v mage damage is so fucking good that I can out damage any mage at range without the fear of losing a melee engagement or being transitioned on)
     
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  4. EarthMother

    EarthMother Earth Elemental
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    The combat is terrible CC AND AOE spam with several braindead Insta cast rays. It is not at all amazing lol. It's a large part of why the game is dead. You are part of the extremely vocal minority who simply can't see past what you like as compared to everyone else.
     
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  5. Animal

    Animal Eodrin
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    Do you honestly think people leave because of the combat? (I'm asking this in spite of knowing your response. I just want you to rethink what you just spewed from your mind onto the keyboard.)

    It concerns me when someone posts about combat while being critical of the FPS elements inside of a game strictly developed with the intention of being an MMOFPS.
     
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  6. EarthMother

    EarthMother Earth Elemental
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    They leave for many reasons, obviously. But if you think anyone other than the same 100 of you who absolutely love the combat don't find it absolutely terrible then you simply aren't paying attention.
     
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  7. Animal

    Animal Eodrin
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    I would say you definitely deviate from the norm if you believe combat is anything less than a boon to the Darkfall population. Hell, it's one of the few favored parts of this game. If we had regular content patches - be it quests, new and improved AI(a very difficult thing to do with respect to other parts of the game engine), fluff items, or anything that occupies the time of people in-game and is seen as fun by the majority - then combat would rarely be a discussion.
     
  8. MikeJT

    MikeJT Black Knight
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    Well IMO you're describing the game EXACTLY how it should be.

    Exceptional players with exceptional aim should be rewarded for that skill. Period.

    If anything needs to change about TTK, it should be the mediocre advantage heavily geared players get in melee vs mages, or perhaps the insane DPS low-damage, fast staves get vs their heavier damage, slower casting counterparts.

    Or maybe a reduction in the insane burst damage that rays can deliver or the crazy ability for R90's to deal significant damage with near misses.

    @RootedOak doesn't seem to be interested in addressing these things, but instead presents with what amounts to a nerf to melee and archery.

    7% damage decrease across the board is going to make fights last 1-2 more hits longer without actually really changing the outcome.

    If we want people to feel 'less pwnd' how about compressing the noob-veteran gap instead of flat damage reductions which give the illusion of being 'less pwnd'.
     
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  9. Animal

    Animal Eodrin
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    I think I wasn't clear enough.

    The ratio of skill to damage for melee is disproportionate to the ratio of skill to damage for archery and magic.

    Melee haste speed needs to be reduced to fix the current melee TTK(which is like... 3-5 seconds and retarded IMO)
    Archery haste speed needs to be reduced to make destros less overpowered in group settings.

    That's what Beargrim is trying to address with these changes.

    We both absolutely agree that outstanding play should be rewarded, but right now I think it may be disheartening to a lot of players when they come across players like myself. No one that has a decent understanding of the game should lose a good gearbag in 7-15 seconds because I forced melee with a slight health advantage.

    (A slightly different approach would be greatly reducing melee reach across the board, but that's a huge combat change and may be frowned upon by the community)

    Btw, I think rays should be left alone, but r90's should definitely have a larger fall off as radial distance increases and field AoEs need to have diminishing returns.
     
    #29 Animal, Jul 29, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
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  10. RootedOak

    RootedOak Oak Lord
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    I'm not trying to buff mages really. It's just that when we get into fights it just seems like the low skilled opponents have such a degree of "no chance" that if they at least felt like they did something I think it would really help those types of players.

    If it came down to it we could figure some additional way to slightly nerf mage damage more to keep the same TTK balance. The real offenders are destros though:

    At a siege for example, the extremely loud noise makes it hard to notice you're being meleed in first person mode. Destros often get sneaky 100% hp kills. This really happens most as Animal said when high skilled players clash with low skilled.​

    It's either that the vet playerbase got better or the other changes BPG made shortened the TTK.

    There are some other things I'd like to say that would effect TTK, but I don't want to go there as it has to do with new spells.
     
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  11. MikeJT

    MikeJT Black Knight
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    Destro was a dumb idea made up by a lazy developer. I'd like to see it gone completely and gear rebalanced around the fact that mages can have every school in the game surging.

    Another missing feature of Darkfall is noisey armors. The idea that a guy in full-plate can sneak up on you is kind of ridiculous and it's something that could change.

    Adding noise to anyone wearing armor heavier than studded, even when crouch walking, would prevent ninja-knights.

    The other problem with reducing damage, especially for low end characters, and certainly if the damage reduction is a flat 7% across the board, is that unless they increase everyone's mana and stamina pool or reduce mana and stamina costs, it will seriously hurt lower tier characters.

    With a low end toon, finishing off a higher end toon leaves your character completely spent, even if you stat up properly. Low end toons can beat a higher end toon if the player is good enough at the game, but they'll be spent afterwards. Until people start getting Archmage, Veteran Mage and Mana Conservation (which basically let you do more damage, for less mana/stamina), killing high-hp toons is extremely difficult.

    It would also increase the usefulness of blinds significantly. Currently I think there's far too many blinds in the game (spending probably 1/4-1/3 of any given fight either eye-rotted, pungent misted, having an impale spike in my central vision, or looking at a white screen due to confusion. Anyone without all these blinds would gimped even further with a longer TTK/reduced damage.

    Like I said. I think the game is the way it should be.

    I don't think the TTK is too low. If someone gets the sticky back on you, you did something wrong, or they played better. It might be annoying to the person on the receiving end but getting wrecked always is. If someone juggles you with spells then you probably should've used your shield and let them waste their mana doing 5-10 damage per hit.
     
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  12. RootedOak

    RootedOak Oak Lord
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    Character grind is already super fast and about to get faster after the "pivot". This is not a good reason to even mention a "low end character" when talking about balancing end game.
     
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  13. MikeJT

    MikeJT Black Knight
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    I don't think reducing the magnitude of these spells is the issue. It's the duration.

    Currently my haste/rapid last nearly 4 minutes each which is insane. I think I've got them up to 25? Definitely not 50. They should bring it more in line with ironskin with a very short duration (maxed out at maybe 2 minutes). It should be impossible for a hasted player to sneak up on you because the haste simply shouldn't last long enough for you to not hear it being cast.

    Core point being that if a mage is casting haste/rapid shot they can't be dealing damage. The ability to blanket buff entire groups with haste/rapid shot and have it last nearly 4 minutes is a little bit insane. These are spells that should be cast as you push, reapplied on a regular basis (not 4 minutes regular), and focused on the people who will benefit most from them (heavily geared melee pushers).

    And personally if they had a good understanding of the game they simple wouldn't let you force melee. Yet again you're describing the game EXACTLY how I think it should be.

    Mages have an advantage in ranged combat and access to numerous spells to keep you off them. Knock-ups kill your player control, WoF takes it away, blinds to keep you unable to keep on them. These are all tools mages can use to keep people off them. And once you actually do get into melee with them, you should be rewarded greatly for doing so.

    Simply put, you shouldn't be getting into melee range with a health advantage. If you are it sounds like they were outplayed.

    I rarely see people using Slow or Delayed Shot from Water Magic, or Disease or Sluggish from Witchcraft. Disease will take 4 points of damage off a player if you hit them in the face with it.
     
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    #33 MikeJT, Jul 29, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  14. MULQ

    MULQ Goblin Warrior

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    People leave because of the grind to get all the spells and skills needed. And when they remove the grind, new people will leave because of the combat, yes.

    It's just too clunky.

    A hundred skills and spells that you have to manage in addition to the FPS controls. Not to mention that the opponents are mostly vets who have played and gotten used to the weird as hell controls for 8 years already.
     
  15. Animal

    Animal Eodrin
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    @MikeJT You and I may be playing different games(or we may be so far apart in player skill that the game is perceived differently).

    In a fight against me you have two options:
    1.) Melee back and probably lose, but still have a chance to go hit for hit.
    2.) Try to avoid melee and get hit in the back and lose.

    I can't dumb it down any more than that. A smart player will realize that avoiding melee is going to hurt their odds of winning more than going into it.

    Also, mages do not - in any way - have an advantage at range against someone with mage killer. Your rays will be doing 30-40 damage a hit. Their bow shots will be doing 40-50. That bow is attacking quite a bit quicker than you're casting rays.

    Eye rot? Look down.
    Pungent? You can see through.
    WoF? Maintain your velocity and run through it.

    I openly welcome any mage that wants to spam spells that cost between 40 to 60 stats each cast and do less damage than my 2-3 stamina bow shots.

    (I think I've played about 3 hours in the past 2 weeks, but I can probably find the time to log in and show you what I mean and avoid belaboring the point I'm trying to convey.)
     
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  16. MikeJT

    MikeJT Black Knight
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    @Animal Well that's not at all patronising.

    Honestly I didn't consider mage killer.

    When I talk about balancing the game I don't really consider mage-killer or destro because mage-killer and destro are bullshit vendor-bought specializations that should never have been implemented and should be promptly removed.

    I'm assuming you meant Confusion when you said 'look down'.

    Core point is whether you're looking down or not, you're not looking at the person you're trying to force into melee.

    Pungent is easy enough to see through in 3rd person but not that easy to see through in first.

    WoF is best combined with something to kill their forward momentum first. Eg hitting them with a knock-up then casting a Wall of Force so they land in it.

    What I'm seriously hearing is "I'm OP, nerf me!"

    Have you ever considered the possibility that you've just been playing against shit mages? There's a lot of shit players with maxed out toons playing this game. I hope you realise that.
     
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  17. Animal

    Animal Eodrin
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    @MikeJT Would you consider Arrow(Wally World) a shit mage?...

    And, no, you can avoid eye rot by looking directly down. It stops the blind animation entirely.

    Magma is the only spell with a large enough knockup to allow you to cast WoF before they hit the ground. You're better off pre-disabling or insta-disabling before/after the magma, raying/debuffing, then juggling with inferno->fireball->lightning strike->ray, rather than casting WoF.

    If you understood combat, then you would realize that it's actually very balanced and actually favors melee/archery players, but people want to continue to delude themselves.
     
    #37 Animal, Jul 29, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
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  18. Sorrow Avaritia

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    You kinda lose all credibility talking about combat mechanics when you don't know something that every1 has known for years (the eye rot thing).
     
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  19. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    We would make a lot more progress if we spent time helping others understand. It is quite disheartening that so many topics result in insults or childish attempts to discredit others.

    This isn't directed solely to you, but nearly everyone.
     
  20. Sorrow Avaritia

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    You are just as bad as us, your responses in the add toggle to queue system thread were just awful for a dev.