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Increase the TTK

Discussion in 'Game Design Discussion' started by RootedOak, Jul 28, 2017.

  1. Scrubby Bear

    Scrubby Bear Eodrin
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    The rays themselves are not actually a great or efficient source of damage. Bolts have a faster TTK as they are not limited by a global cool down and are more efficient. Archery is much faster as well on top of being vastly more efficient. The reason rays made combat feel faster is because it became harder to kite with no warning instant cast rays and easier to push melee. This is because the second you straight line you eat rays in the back so you are forced to constantly juke when pulling away or kiting. The aggressor has the benefit of being able to straight line in pursuit so its easy to see how they can always get into melee.

    If the DFO forums were still around I suggested shortening the global cool down and replacing the missing cool down time with a short cast time with a built in jump shot instead many times. You would functionally still get the same number of rays per minute and be able to play nearly the same way with them, but they wouldn't be as strong to combo, wouldn't be so easy to push melee with and wouldn't force everyone to constantly juke all the time because you would have an actual cast time to function as a warning, granted it would be short.
     
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  2. Grimtide

    Grimtide Evil Eye
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    Currently only have internet access on an old iphone or I obviously would of liked to go more in depth. I think you've probably read enough of my posts and threads by now to realize a lot of what you just posted is 100% defensive and insulting, not fact. I'll ignore that though and ask you to go re-read what you just said and then read some posts i've made about destro and combat balance in the past because I really don't enjoy repeating myself 200 times about the subject.
     
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  3. Rukus98

    Rukus98 Goblin Scout
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    Yeah dude bolts are definitely a faster ttk. The projectile with a one second casting time is definitely going to be beat out the instant cast hitscan spell that does the same damage. Especially considering one of the rays in the cycle has a hard cap on it's mitigation due to being arcane damage. Super good reasoning.

    Are you basing your ideas on people just standing still shooting eachother? While were at it lets model our CSGO balance discussions on 1700s era formally clothed musketeers. That'll do the trick.

    That said your point about adding a cast time is good, but hitscan abilities shouldn't outdamage or be on par with projectile abilities. Not in a game where we want skill to be the primary contributing factor. Hitscan abilities probably juat shouldnt exist in that world.
     
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  4. DarkGhost25

    DarkGhost25 Black Knight
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    You were the one that made an insulting post, and then you get a taste of your own medicine and you think that's not fair game? You assume you know more about the game than me and you don't even know who I am. You think that because you do well in pvp (and seem to assume that I don't) that you are more qualified to voice your opinions on what is important. Here is what you said"

    I don't know how you can logically reach that conclusion. You really think that only "small tweaks" are needed? I don't believe that you actually believe that.

    And then you have the audacity to say this?

    Look at all the assumption you're making, try forming a proper argument if you think I'm wrong, you are not an authority on anything, you are just another player, as am I. I can assure you that we have both played the game a huge amount and had a lot of victories in pvp, don't try to devalue my opinion based on your own ego and assumptions. The reason I post here is for the betterment of the game, I am not trying to "game" the development of the game for my own benefit in pvp. I believe pvp can be far superior to how it is now, sorry if you don't agree with my ideas. Plus, the devs seem to be already on the path of what I have been campaigning for forever, meaningful build diversity, I was the one that spearheaded that movement and clearly I must not be completely off base when so many first time posters popped up support this cause, in general there has been a ton of support.
     
  5. Grimtide

    Grimtide Evil Eye
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    I should of said biased or misinformed, not and. You clearly do ask for changes constantly to suit your playstyle actually man. Maybe you should read what you say yourself if you want to talk about ego. At least i'm not hiding who I am or asking for combat changes to buff my playstyle.

    https://forums.darkfallriseofagon.com/threads/patch-ideas.13840/
     
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  6. Fawley

    Fawley Infernal
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    Remove back buffs/heals/debuffs.
     
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  7. DarkGhost25

    DarkGhost25 Black Knight
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    I read over the post again, what exactly do you think is biased or egotistical? I would love to know because I don't see either of those in that thread. I don't even have a playstyle, I am stuck playing the way the game is now, a buff or nerf to whatever build I'm using that particular day is irrelevant to me, I mean that.

    I *want* to have a playstyle, not one the game forced me into but one that I picked for myself. That's why I support the specialization system so much and that's why I want different types of armor. Is that really a bias? To me that seems like stuff I want to play with in the game, I feel like that's stuff I deserve as a paying customer. I gave ideas but I never demanded a single thing. In my opinion the armor options are very limited, there is not much to explore, it's basically all been solved. Same thing with builds, spells, weapons, there is no tinkering and no mystery. Sure, you can switch up a nuke or use polearms but it's very basic stuff?

    Am I bored of fighting the same fights over and over? Yes, I am. Nearly every fight is pretty much the same.

    Start out ranged-->push melee-->disengage-->greatsword push + rays-->bunnyhop chase scene

    Then we have the whole magma storm combo thing, preference for fire spells in general, reliance on blinds, etc. It's pretty damn bland isn't it? You can pretty much feel when people are going to start running and it happens nearly every fight I get into, it's getting old. Also, I don't feel proud of my build. I play heavy hybrid, the best choice for me since I am needed for buff others (otherwise I'd be destroyer). I am killing people with nukes, rays, and other stuff that I don't want to use. I don't feel a lot of excitement after victories any more, but I do love the game. I would really love it if I could make my own build, *especially* a melee/archery build that isn't the same as everyone elses. What have I got?

    I'll be honest, I almost quit the other day. I'm just getting bored of being apart of a stale, never-ending meta. I'm not alone on this, man, there are many just like me that have already left, and many more that are willing to come back when build diversity is changed. Now I don't expect everyone to agree on what needs to be done to improve pvp or the game but I do feel like we should be debating our points and not trying to discredit someone's entire posting history by basically saying "your viewpoints are wrong".
     
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  8. Grimtide

    Grimtide Evil Eye
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    At the end of my post I said specializations dont need to mean limitations. I think there is plenty of room for diversifying combat by specialization (fire spec applies burn dot, air spec makes air spells cast 25% faster etc) and hopefully new skills and options (different arrow type for example) rather than putting a hard cap on abilities. A lot can also be done with encumbrance to change the balance on armors and buff playstyles like heavy hybrid or nerf heavy armored mages if require. It's actually insane how much diversification is possible in DF but its also a gigantic can of worms balance wise if they change too much too fast.
     
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  9. DarkGhost25

    DarkGhost25 Black Knight
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    Oh no, I absolutely agree with that. I think there may be a misunderstanding here, it sounds like you're not a fan of my thread about specializations with restrictions. That was not a proposal, that was intended to be a discussion on restrictions just to spark good conversation. Armor restrictions were never discussed so I thought it would be fun to explore what they could add, I wasn't suggesting that they should be added to the game. Same thing with magic restrictions, basically it was just exploring ideas, thinking outside the box a little :)

    I am a big fan of using encumbrance as a balancing point. We have that already but it has untapped potential. Different arrow types, armor types, weapon types, etc are all great options. I agree that balance may be bad if too much is done at once but I would risk it anyway because it's such a hugely exciting patch. A lot of people would flock to the game if there were suddenly a ton of new tools to customize your playstyle with. Short term imbalance is worth the population spike I think and more patches can be added to iron out the rough points.
     
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  10. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    There is also no reason why a specialization has to be limited to a specific school.
     
  11. DarkGhost25

    DarkGhost25 Black Knight
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    Are you suggesting that we will be able to lock out schools of our choice on some specializations? If so, that sounds interesting.
     
  12. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    I'm just saying that to help people think outside the box. I always hear of "fire spec" or "water spec", but what about "Paladin Spec" where a person can now cast heals, buffs and maybe a few "Holy" type spess with a club + shield attached. Perhaps that spec has a reverse affect on magic encumbrance. Take the "idea" of a class and develop a specialization that works out to something similar.

    Whenever I think of specializations, armor changes or anything that creates diversity I tend to leave the current setup as a base and build off of it.
     
  13. DarkGhost25

    DarkGhost25 Black Knight
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    Ah, I see. Well that sounds good to me. Reversing encumbrance sounds really fun in such a case. Very curious about this topic in general so it's nice to see an example :)
     
  14. Grimtide

    Grimtide Evil Eye
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    any 1h should work and i feel like making melee mastery into two schools (1h and 2h) would be great. just have it go off whatever current peoples highest 1h and 2h skills are)

    maybe add some diversification with whirlwind, make sieze into a useful skill, keep different power attacks and diversify by weapon choice instead of having to grind up entirely new melee schools to try out new weapons.
     
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  15. DarkGhost25

    DarkGhost25 Black Knight
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    That was my initial thought too but now I'm wondering if restricting the ability to one handed clubs is better because it would permanently give them a place in the game, even if the weapon was underpowered. That's kind of interesting to me. However, I'd be happy either way.
     
  16. EarthMother

    EarthMother Earth Elemental
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    The darkfall population of 100...maybe.

    But as long as you wish to stick stubbornly to your shit combat game will continue to fail.
     
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  17. Scrapnotcrap

    Scrapnotcrap Eodrin
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    I disagree only because it's fine for anyone, but the top players.

    I know i know, a game must be balanced with the top players in mind, but this time, a good fight between 2 average players is fine.

    It's only a problem when 2 players are godly with rays and a godly destroyer.

    Solution,
    -Nerf destroyers or remove them. They had nothing, but buffs since beta.
    -remove cones on pungent-mist and frost-bite. Keep it on lighting-strike.
    -Reduce the damage on rays across the board or make rays somewhat counter-able, more predictable. This mean, increase the casting time just a bit like +0.1-+0.2 second.
    -Nerf GS.

    That way, the ttk won't be as bad.

    If you spam rays and you're consistent with your rays, you can end a fight in no time.
     
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  18. Metal Haze

    Metal Haze New Member
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    I know stam drain for jumping was changed for bunnyhopping reasons, so every jump press takes stam. However this also applies to sprinting. If i transition between strafe and forward sprint it does the same thing. (a>w>d>w>a>w) Every time I hit W it ticks my stamina. Can drain stam just from mashing W over and over like you can from spamming jump.
     
  19. Slayven

    Slayven Eodrin
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    Oh I love it please keep going..
    --- Post updated ---
    Give us exsample s if u had to choose some diversity specials...give us some.
    Like to see where ur mind is at..
     
  20. RootedOak

    RootedOak Oak Lord
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    Okay, so I've been thinking about what I posted in this thread over the past week or so.

    The TTK in DF can be really long, or very short. Not as short as an FPS game, but very very short. Like 5-10 seconds in some cases. The biggest offenders of short TTK are:
    • Destro Melee
    • Melee in general
    • Mount hits
    The above bullet points essentially boil down to melee. In this thread devs talked about plans to eliminate damage variation per hit which sometimes ranges high. There is also Crits (RNG-Crits) and the red crosshair Consecutive-Crits. Between these two types of crits, an unneeded amount of bonus damage occurs. The speed of melee hits is quite enough. The red Consecutive-Crits seem to have some design purpose: rewarding not missing melee. While the RNG-Crits are simply increased DPS.

    I suggest we remove the random crits (this will be a big nerf to Daggers specifically however). This will lower the TTK of a stickyback a little, not too much, but enough that the player could potentially have a higher chance of moving out of melee before they die.

    Changes of these kinds of things should be slight, so other considerations should be involved. Like DPS testing attempt to keep DPS similar but not so painful for stickybacks or several consecutive hits.

    One of the hardest things to get used to as a rusty player or a mid/low skilled player is avoiding being 100% to 0% killed by melee. It happens soo often when considering all the factors that a player has to keep track of. Not to mention that we, the players, have to keep our volume high enough to hear ourselves being hit or bow nochs/footsteps in scenarios like being chased by a melee pusher.
     
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