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Interesting to see the price difference of mage compared to destro

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Blaze, Jan 19, 2021.

  1. Blaze

    Blaze Black Knight

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    Why play a destro when you can play a mage and spend less gold to have a competitive gear set?
    49,400+ is what the difference of both bags come up to.
    Imagine how much more disparity a q5 infernal mage bag is compared to a q5 infernal destro.



    Seletine Ingot = 2,300
    Difference in armor per set is 8 ingots = 8 * 2,300 = 18,400
    In the two bags im assuming they both have the same enc/stam enchant, same melee/staff, only difference would usually be the bow, and as a fp destro if you are't using a r60 bow with keen you are going to lose.
    cost of bow
    1000g
    2 Raven wood = 20,000
    1 Heimal wood = 10,000
    Cost of a r60 bow is 31,000
    so the cost of the armor and bow is
    18,400 + 31,000 = 49,400
    Keep in mind that I have not calculated the keen for the bow, or the two melee enchants on the jewelry which would continue to increase the price of a fp destro bag.

    Image of a q3 mage bag with self buff
    upload_2021-1-19_14-22-32.png


    Image of q3 destro bag with q3 slash/pierce rings
    upload_2021-1-19_14-27-27.png
     
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  2. Not_Primetime

    Not_Primetime Infernal
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    Destroyer should be removed. That's not likely either so...

    Play Destroyer or don't play Destroyer most people don't really care. Just stop with the Destroyer threads. They were addressing this issue. Skill changes, new armor, new robes and you guys poo pooped them even before they had all the changes done. The mob spoke and any attempt to fix the issue is dead. Get over it! You guys solidified the games fate. I'm 99% sure they will never attempt to rebalance the game. If I was a BPG developer I would never write a single line of code pertaining to combat EVER AGAIN. Enjoy!
     
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  3. Jujutsu_Kaisen

    Jujutsu_Kaisen Goblin Warrior
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    1- switch out the staff cost for the destro to a BB, your paying too much for very little gain.

    2- add a second BB with a Q2 witchcraft transmute, for damage spells- the damage is on par with a keened cobra

    3- switch out 1-2 FP pieces for bone. Archery encumb is too high and your losing damage that is increasing the crippling effect of misses.

    Then compare, its actually pretty close since the rare wood is the bottle neck for both at Q3 and wood be equal

    Edit- makes me want to go back to destro, have yet to see one good destro video that uses all the tricks of the trade. Its like a lost art for some reason
     
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  4. Blaze

    Blaze Black Knight

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    do it man!! show the way
     
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  5. Methodico

    Methodico Infernal

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    I think that destro doesn't need staff. He should have a chance to heal himself with sword in hand. I think that the destroyer is a great class for those who hate using too many keys and those who want to play more casual, it would be a great class for newcomers and to entertain them if only it didn't cost so much. But I think that destroyers from infernal onwards are OPs in terms of defense / cure. But that's just my opinion.
     
  6. MikeJT

    MikeJT Black Knight
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    This has been my consistent position since the day Melee/Archery specialisations were added.

    They were an extremely lazy way for Av to attempt to "balance" Mage vs Melee/Archery builds instead of actually balancing Mage vs Melee/Archery builds.

    The way I saw it was that mages in most games are "glass cannons", but in DF once a Mage cast stone skin+site shield, they weren't really that more squishy than anything but the heaviest, most expensive Melee builds.
     
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  7. Sorrow Avaritia

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    Destro is slightly stronger than mage in RoA especially in a city and when you get to infernal tier. There have been many small buffs to destro and many small nerfs to mage. At one point destro was much stronger.

    Although I am basing this on when I last played which was a long time ago.
     
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  8. Volfen

    Volfen Chosen of Khamset
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    The bow keen is kind of irrelevant because the mage staff needs 2 enchants vs the destro only needing one (casting speed). This mage bag will also run into issues if a fight goes to water, and 60%+ of the disparity (according to your analysis, at least) comes from the bow. I also don't agree with R60 bow being a requirement unless we're talking 1v1-3v3 size fights. Most of the time as a destroyer on land you'll be either parrying (defensively or charging at someone) or meleeing, specially in medium/large scale fights.

    With that said, of course the extra 8 heavy armor pieces and 3 enchants (assuming as a mage you have 120 stats or are too cheap to use stat enchants) are more expensive and staves don't scale as much as bows do so you're less punished for using a blackbolt as a mage.

    Regarding infernal tier, it's true that infernal/dragon will be more of a disparity. However, it's also true that destroyer scales way better with gear.

    The answer to this question is because you enjoy it and/or your group needs more destros.

    I'm not going to side step the point that ideally the two playstyles would have closer costs. However, this isn't easy to fix, either because of resistence from the community or resource constraints. For example:
    • Increasing mage bag cost. Remember when staves actually scaled? That didn't age well. Besides the obvious balance implications of messing with staff scaling, people cried a river about their r40 blackbolts becoming bad.
    • Any change to pvp in general is going to be received with rage by one half of the community or the other. Several potential solutions to this problem would have an effect on balance.
    • Creating mastery mage armor. Similar to the staff scaling problem, if we retired existing bone armor there would be outrage. Adding a new armor set means creating the assets and fitting them for 12 different character models which is horrible return of investment compared to the same artists instead working on assets necessary for new content. Recoloring existing bone isn't an option due to the dye system and there isn't really something already in game that would be a fitting replacement.

    With these things in mind, althought I'm not the one making these calls, it's easy for me to understand why this hasn't been addressed.
     
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  9. Blaze

    Blaze Black Knight

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    Bro, legit most destros who have issues of destro are the ones who play small scale so yes they need a bow xD. And yes r60+ is a requirement anything less and u tickle mages.
    Also im not trying to make gear sets cost less or anything tbh, just trying to give people some info and numbers.
    I understand the principal in large fights that most times you don't use your bow, but are you just gonna go into a large fight with a starter bow?
    Also have to disagree because in large fights you had destro mainly using a bow (not saying this is correct or not, but it happened and most had silverbranches for the most dmg)
     
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  10. KoKane

    KoKane Chosen of Khamset
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    What about very simple model changes to existing bone pieces. Just adding spikes on the back, similar to Infernal? I dont know much about modelling so forgive if thats just the same as new model work.


    What about moving Rage to Destroyer/Indestructable only? (it is really like some Warrior type of spell anyway) Would this offset the balance in an indirect way, since only Destroyers would have this?

    A lot of AV's initial designs of this warrior/archer playstyle really hint at the stat pricing being the balancing factor. They wanted Destroyer and the other perks to sacrifice their mana to gain the bonuses of the perks.

    So what about merging Indestructible and Destroyer, but when it comes to the Inherent resists, make the armour that is worn reduce the buff - scaling with armour.

    So if the destroyer wears Scale, they get the Indestructible bonuses at max, then with plate they lose -20%, FP -30%, Infernal -40% etc
    So you have the buffed resists until you really gear up, where the diminishing gains take effect.

    Just firing that into the post I havent actually thought about whether or not it's too OP
     
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  11. MikeJT

    MikeJT Black Knight
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    Therein lies a major issue with Darkfall: keeping an existing player base, who have come accustomed to existing imbalances, happy with the game, whilst addressing the issues which makes it difficult to attract new players.

    It's probably an unpopular opinion, but I'd say attracting new players is as important keeping the existing ones happy, and that decisions which make the game a better game should be out before ones that keep any particular group happy.
     
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  12. Bear Forcefour

    Bear Forcefour Goblin Scout

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    Why not just nerf protection self buffs or add some protections to heavy cuirasses?
     
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  13. Jujutsu_Kaisen

    Jujutsu_Kaisen Goblin Warrior
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    I appreciate that you are willing, as someone working on RoA, to post on the forums but there are some real what? Are you even playing the game comments in your post.
    - destroyer play is based off how much pressure you can apply with Archery. People chasing mages around with just melee and losing are the ones complaining. R60 bow is required.

    - water fights, the mage set above is going to have equal or better arrow protection than the destro plus better and faster movement (edit) in the water, and is why destro's are loath to jump in the water to fight mages.

    - why couldn't you use mesh & assets already in game like ND did, they were race specific, looked great and there wasn't any change to existing armor sets needed.

    I like how the bottle neck for both sets is rare wood and Archery DPS is in a great spot. All those changes are great, somebody just needs to finish out the armor and specialization
     
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  14. MikeJT

    MikeJT Black Knight
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    Or, nerf them with low powered staffs so they're most effective with transmuted staves?

    That way you either
    a) need to switch to a more powerful staff and accept shower carrying times
    b) have to carry a second staff specially for buffing
    c) have to switch to a transmuted staff
     
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  15. Sorrow Avaritia

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    Som1 never heard of parry.
     
  16. Not_Primetime

    Not_Primetime Infernal
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    First off this is a group oriented game and should not be balanced based 1v1 encounters.
    I see your join date "Nov 12, 2020" so I will assume this is not someone on an alt account. You should go back and look at all the previous patch notes. To see what changes where made and reverted or never released (it will take a while).
    https://www.riseofagon.com/game/development/patch-timeline-and-notes/

    BPG embarked on a massive combat revamp. That removed the specializations, self buff, buff others, add new armor, new robes, new staves that scaled, new crafting materials and more. There was such a massive backlash from vets/existing players that they rolled it all back and re-added the specializations which is where we are today. All this before they completed the revamp and never introduced the new armor. So there will be not be an attempt to fix the imbalances. The best you'll get are minor skill and spell tweaks.
     
  17. Sique

    Sique Fire Giant
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    good.
     
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  18. Jujutsu_Kaisen

    Jujutsu_Kaisen Goblin Warrior
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    Destros who melee rush because they think its a "I win" is part of the problem.

    I'm a vet from DF1, and ya I quit out of the gate on RoA but not for those reasons. I'm not sure why they think keeping vocal vets happy results in a populated game. I actually like what they have done, I feel like they are close. I was just commenting because volfens post is clearly not correct to anybody who has played the game/ and I hadn't had my second cup of coffee
     
  19. GrimReapiN

    GrimReapiN Varangian Warthane
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    Age old question. The original intent was multiple specializations, but AV scrapped that for the Ice Dragon, then basically ended all development updates.

    It's an unfinished product, that's for sure. How to balance it or whether it deserves balancing... I have no clue. But I play destro and I love it. Until I die. Don't like making more bags, it can be expensive... mostly just the new wood. Not sure why they added new wood. That's kills it for me.... silverbranches are a pain to make.
     
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  20. The Red King

    The Red King Obsidian Golem
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    They could make an Archer spec / Healer spec / glass cannon mage spec - all optional of course current mage stays the same. Make everyone happy!