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Let's Talk about Light Battlespikes

Discussion in 'Game Design Discussion' started by RootedOak, May 10, 2016.

  1. RootedOak

    RootedOak Oak Lord
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    The first time I heard about using Light Battlespikes to hop was when The Metalkon posted this video of new emergent gameplay in 2010:



    To no surprise, a month or so later Metalkon raided our city, Mehatil, using the spikes to gain distance escaping us.

    From that point on, I decided that I would try to use Battlespikes in combat. It took some time, but eventually using spikes became a part of the metagame. Type Forced made a macro that threw the spike for you and looked back to a horizontal angle (highly necessary). This macro gave the use of spikes a very bad stigma, the same stigma that players have with all the use of macros in Darkall. I like the use of Light Battlespikes, but I'd rather show information about the spikes before I support the use of them.

    The effect of Light Battlespikes entering the metagame:
    1. Wall of Force is less effective (spikes can pop a player out of a WoF)
    2. Wall of Force is less effective (spikes can be used just as a WoF is cast to allow the player to slide quickly out of the gravity pull)
    3. An additional method to initiate a bunny hop.
    4. Able to successfully use the spike while blinded to gain distance.
    5. Destroyers are more effective (spike hops to match mage Stormblast distance)
    6. Destroyers are more effective (spike hops can't fizzle(not relevant in RoA))
    7. Players who don't carry Battlespikes travel slower than those who don't (essentially an 8th reg to carry)
    8. Siegestones get taken down by siege forces who always carry light spikes for hopping.
    9. Medium to Low skilled players often take "free hits" of damage while spike hopping in a straight line.
    10. Mobs that skin for Q1 Sparkstone were farmed much much more often.
    11. Price of Q1 Sparkstone rose.
    There is a notion that the hop effect from Light Battlespikes should be removed in RoA. I'm not sure where this came from, but let's consider the eleven effects above.

    Removing the hop from spikes (according to the list above):
    1. WoF is buffed.
    2. WoF is buffed.
    3. Bunny hopping is nerfed.
    4. Blinds are buffed.
    5. Destroyers are nerfed.
    6. Destroyers are nerfed (fizzles aren't in RoA).
    7. There is no travel speed gap for spike carriers.
    8. Siege forces will have to carry additional resources(out of the ordinary at least) to take down small siege stones.
    9. Medium to Low Skilled players have slightly less margin for error (no need to parry during spike hops if you can't spike hop).
    10. Q1 Sparkstone Mobs are farmed less.
    11. Price of Q1 Sparkstone is lower.
    If these removal effects are intended or ideal for RoA, then maybe removing the hop from spikes is a direction RoA might go. I personally very much enjoy the mechanics of the Light Battlespike hopping, and would rather see the cooldown nerfed or the weight of them increased (they are already kind of heavy). I normally carry ~25 in each gearbag.

    A fair argument that I've heard is if the hop remains in game, then it's another thing that players must farm to stay on par with everyone using them. I think that it's a good thing to have more dynamic consumables like the spikes, and it helps keep the economy driving forward.

    EDIT: I meant to add some video examples:

    Here's a long video of a Destro in a siege using spikes, and mages using spikes to get around. If you listen close you can hear lots of spike users (Start at 5:10):


    Here's one of Itwas Luck's videos (one of my favorites) using battlespikes to escape zergs over and over again:


    *CAVEAT to my thread about directional B/CH: None of the escapes in Luck's video would be possible if the chasers could begone south and west.
     
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    #1 RootedOak, May 10, 2016
    Last edited: May 11, 2016
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  2. Bonii

    Bonii Winterbound
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    So basically you want a direct nerf to destroyers?

    Mages are already going to be strong with enchants, why make destroyers have no ability to chase a mage?
     
  3. RootedOak

    RootedOak Oak Lord
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    I was just showing what happens when spike hopping is removed. I actually support spike hopping, but it probably needs nerfed a bit like Scrubby said, increasing the cooldown.
     
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  4. NonFactor

    NonFactor Forest Golem
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    I think it deserves clearly some tweaks.

    The current state is OP and force everyone to spam that.

    Add any cooldown, or damage, or casting..will balance that.
     
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  5. Super Star

    Super Star Oak Lord
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    How is removing fizzles a nerf to destros? If anything it was a larger buff to destros than it was to mages.

    Also, it would be better for them to just create a spike with a larger cooldown specifically for a hop as a small escape like you were saying to get out of wof's or w/e. Maybe a 1 min cd or something like that. Then just nerf the jump/bounce effect on all normal spikes.
     
  6. RootedOak

    RootedOak Oak Lord
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    The bullet point meant that it was a factor before RoA removed fizzles. So unless you get tounge rotted, it's no longer a factor at all.
     
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  7. Scrubby Bear

    Scrubby Bear Eodrin
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    I think he means that removing battle spikes would be a nerf to destroyers, as in it would remove one movement ability when they already have a few less than mages. While its true mages can use spikes as well, stormblast is a better option for a mage as it provides more forward movement so it isn't nearly as critical that a mage use spikes for movement. A mage can also fall back on using magma if they must. Also storm blast can function as a wof counter that a destroyer doesn't have, granted a crappy one as you take far too much damage with a staff out while spikes are slightly better/faster for it.
     
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  8. Super Star

    Super Star Oak Lord
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    Im all for using some type of consumable to give a slight bit of dynamic movement but currently how spikes work with effectively no cooldown isnt right. You should not have the option to spike out of every wof you get hit by. You should be forced to choose if its worth spiking out. Is it that bad to sit in this wof?? Or am i 25%, a disabling blow is coming and im pretty much screwed if i sit in it.
     
    #9 Super Star, May 10, 2016
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
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  9. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    If I could only pick one it would be a cool down. The insta cast is nice as it gets you out of wof, but you wouldn't be able to get out of 2 immediately.
     
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  10. Scrubby Bear

    Scrubby Bear Eodrin
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    4 guys would have 4 wofs without a cool down, just saying. We don't need even more incentives to zerg/avoid solo play.
     
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  11. Clarence Swamptown

    Clarence Swamptown Black Knight
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    I'm most likely gonna play destro. I want battlespikes hop removed.

    You guys are only looking at it from one angle. First of, both destros and mages can use bspikes. Second, bspikes make it much much harder for a destro to stay in melee with people, as people use them the same way they were using evade in UW, to get out of melee. And it has no stat cost. And no cooldown.

    It help getting out of WOF? Yes. The problem is WOF, not removing bspikes.

    Dunno, I played the game for like 2 years before people started using them, and I think that they changed the dynamic of combat in a really bad way.
     
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  12. Obeesho

    Obeesho Frostjarl
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    Actually I believe that removing bspike hops would eventually be a buff for destros.

    So far bspikes are associated strongly with destro playstyle but I believe they would eventually become universal.

    The ultimate utility of the bspike hop is to break away from melee.

    Think about it.

    (Stormblast is great other than its cast time and cooldown, magma has long cast and does a ton of self damage for a small hop, begone sucks a stickybacker right along with you, bspike is fast, spammable, not a staff...)
     
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  13. Scrubby Bear

    Scrubby Bear Eodrin
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    Yeah but good luck getting wof changed. Far too many people are addicted to its slowing/dumbing down of combat.
     
  14. Super Star

    Super Star Oak Lord
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    i understand what you are saying but look at it this way. Everyone will have to carry these spikes to stay on par with others. That means if you are facing against a mage, and he wants out of melee, he can now spike away on top of begone, etc.. All you are essentially doing is trying to guarantee a way out from a zerg wof and thats all it comes down to. How can you escape from a fight not in your favor as a destro where you are just going to get wof spammed.
     
  15. Scrubby Bear

    Scrubby Bear Eodrin
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    Maybe keep the mechanic then, but change it from a spike to some kind of lesser magic ability. Or even change blast into it. Then you can tweak its cool down, stat cost, cast time and all that other shit, its available to everyone and then spikes can go back to being used just to spike shit. Hell, you could even make it require a wof debuff (provided they can make wof apply one) to even cast it for all I care provided it was super fast casting and required another wof debuff to cast again.
     
  16. onslaught

    onslaught Black Knight
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    I always wanted light battlespikes to have a higher cooldown timer or be replaced by Explosion (but put it in lesser magic or greater magic so destroyer can use it). Insta cast spell that does the same thing but with a cooldown.

    edit: I hate having to make even more shit in order to have a gearbag. A spell is easier, it also gives destroyers more opportunity to hit a mage with a staff out.
     
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  17. Super Star

    Super Star Oak Lord
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    Its much simpler than that. Also if you make it a spell then you will run into the issue that mages get another advantage since they most likely have their staff out, cast time is faster cause of encumbrance etc, etc. All they have to do is remove the jump/launch/momentum effect from all current spikes. Then create a spike specifically for movement with a 1 min cd. Just like potions, people may carry 10 or 20 with them at all times for pvp etc. That way you wont affect seige asset damage putting a cd on current spikes in game. They could also use some mats that currently are useless like all the gems in game or maybe a skin that isnt used in many things like hoarfrost to create this new spike. Therefore keeping the movement dynamic in game, reducing how op it is and at the same time adding value to some otherwise useless items.
     
  18. EleTaylorScoob

    EleTaylorScoob Gravelord
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    I love that zag raid is being kept alive.
     
  19. RootedOak

    RootedOak Oak Lord
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    I meant to put video examples in the OP, so I'll add the below stuff in an edit.

    Here's a long video of a Destro in a siege using spikes, and mages using spikes to get around. If you listen close you can hear lots of spike users (Start at 5:10):


    Here's one of Itwas Luck's videos (one of my favorites) using battlespikes to escape zergs over and over again:


    *CAVEAT to my thread about directional B/CH: None of the escapes in Luck's video would be possible if the chasers could begone south and west.
     
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