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Let's talk about the balance between GS, GA, GC and PA

Discussion in 'Game Design Discussion' started by Nat, Apr 7, 2016.

  1. Nat

    Nat Shadow Knight
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    That's Greatsword, Greatask, Greatclub and Polearm. Now everyone will remember when it came to melee combat there was usually only one choice, and that was two handed weapons because they did more damage and had longer range, excluding daggers. Polearm dominated for a while due to the high damage, wide arc and ease of use. It later fell out of favour after the speed was nerfed from 0.2 to 0.1. Then Greatsword became the weapon of choice due to its high speed, reach, arc and good damage. Daggers are a token weapon used in special circumstances and are balanced as far as I see it.

    I think what we can take away from this is the speed of the weapon and the reach/arc is the most important factor to the common player. I don't know about you guys, but I don't want to see the game become a Greatsword party again. Let's see some variety in weapon choice.

    You guys won't like this but my proposed change is to bring Greatsword down to 0.3 speed, on par with Greatask and Greatclub. Or 0.35. I know people won't like it but let's be honest, it was the best weapon and it mostly came down to its speed. Even with this change the Greatsword is likely to be the best still but at least it won't be too obviously better. Either that or bring GA, GC and PA's speed up a little.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. mcdoogs

    mcdoogs Chosen of Khamset

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    I could see removing PA knockback and maybe speeding up to .15, and bringing GA and GC up to .35 would still keep each weapon different but much closer to equal.

    luckily there is going to be a lot of time to test this
     
    #2 mcdoogs, Apr 7, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
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  3. Nat

    Nat Shadow Knight
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    That too is a good suggestion. Ultimately though I strongly believe something needs to be done because GS was the best weapon and it shouldn't be the only real choice.
     
  4. Hook

    Hook Chosen of Khamset
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    i see no reason to try and make them roughly the same considering people would have to decide what to level. It would help trade also, people who loot weapons would want to trade for the ones they need.
     
  5. Lexendros

    Lexendros Infernal
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    This. And equalize the reach/arc on GC/GA to match GS.
     
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  6. Marvin

    Marvin Crypt Guard

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    I remember rightly the system was perfect, stop trying to knit pick little details just because you couldn't adapt
     
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  7. Elunex

    Elunex Crypt Guard
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    Lol couldn't adapt, thats almost as saying that people who thought the game needed change during cycle r90/100 into the ground just weren't able to adapt.

    To actually add to the discussion it would be nice to have some adjustments to them, i think we could make an approach on dmg cap aswell have it removed for pa and ga alternativly lower gs dmg
     
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  8. Lexendros

    Lexendros Infernal
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    Is that why in any siege in the competitive meta you'd see 95% greatsword, 5% Greataxe and polearm, and 0.00000001% greathammer?

    Granted that has a 0.00000001% margin of error.
     
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  9. gosti

    gosti Frostjarl
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    2-handers need some tweaking, that's for sure. Keep in mind GA has very strong power attack, so when it comes to white hits GA should be the weakest.
     
  10. Nuyur

    Nuyur Wildtribe Mage

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    The problem goes much deeper than just the weapon picks themselves really.
    Greatswords were cheaper to craft overall.
    Greatsword r50's are dropped from neithal? chests.

    So when polearms got nerfed, GS was the logical follow up.
    People were switching to club and axes, by the end. Both of their power attacks are vastly superior to great swords.

    Not saying no changes, but you cant just make everything .40 speed and have equal magnitude.(or whatever speed you want)
    Because at that point, either clubs or axes are the only viable picks.
    Polearms are just weird, i didnt play enough with them to give a solid opinion on them. It seemed like the arc was off center (as in, you hit more right of you than left). And the range, because of knockback, isnt useable in the way the other weapons do.
     
  11. brahji

    brahji Black Knight
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    removing knockback from polearm is a bad idea.
     
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  12. ODB

    ODB Akathar
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    I've always had the mindset that if you had the vast majority of players using the same thing there was a fundamental problem.

    I like the idea of diversity in weapons used in Darkfall!
     
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  13. Nat

    Nat Shadow Knight
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    The system wasn't perfect. The weapons were clearly unbalanced similar to how nearly everyone used a blackbolt/cobra for the speed increase.

    This is an excellent point. An r60 Greatask required 1 theyril and 2 veilron. An r60 Greatclub required 1 theyril and 2 neithal, but also a second r60 that could be made with 1 leenspar and 2 resonant stormrunes, but I don't remember that. Apparently there's 3 rank 60 polearms and 2 of them require theyril, one even requires 2. An r60 Greatsword required 1 neithal and 2 veilron. I mean come on!
     
  14. Nuyur

    Nuyur Wildtribe Mage

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    Was trying to point out that the superiority of GS might just be more figured out, because it was the cheaper/easier option.
    And from there, things just snowballed into everybody using them.

    I personally dont believe that greatswords are THAT much better than the other two options (club/axe).
    GS might need a slight reduction in atk speed, or a bump to all others.
    But aside from that, you'll still likely see a vast majority run GS simply because its been what people used for 3~4 years.

    The experience you have with it makes a difference, almost more so than what the actual weapon is capable of.
    So be carefull with howmuch you initially change things, just because something is under used doesnt also mean its underpowered.
     
  15. mcdoogs

    mcdoogs Chosen of Khamset

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    Whatever happens, I really hope BPG has 2 hander balance ironed out by release. Training melee is annoying af without being able to macro it, so I'd like to be able to pick one and level it at the start.
     
  16. Marvin

    Marvin Crypt Guard

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    you are spot on, Clubs where actually very good if you were good at them e.g. some like Mylina for example proved that.
    GA & Polearm also, if you used right a long with there abilities where very very strong.

    Just so many casual bad players here who didn't have a clue how to use them because they took a bit of skill so all used GS and are completely clueless.
     
  17. Lexendros

    Lexendros Infernal
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    No.

    For reals, there were quantified DPS tests on every weapon. Greatsword came out on top every time (not including daggers). The only possible way you could make the argument otherwise is if you landed the Greataxe powerattack every single time it was off CD... which was difficult to land.
     
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  18. mcdoogs

    mcdoogs Chosen of Khamset

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    roger, only bads used greatswords. good to know
     
  19. Leg enD

    Leg enD Ghost

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    did NA not figure out bludgeoning resistance was the lowest? in the end GC was almost as common as GS
     
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  20. Marvin

    Marvin Crypt Guard

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    They are clueless Leg, I wouldn't waste time debating further with such clowns.