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Let's talk about the balance between GS, GA, GC and PA

Discussion in 'Game Design Discussion' started by Nat, Apr 7, 2016.

  1. RagnarokDel

    RagnarokDel Frostjarl
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    I think polearms could make a come back in viability if they were put to .15 attack speed

    I would rather see greataxes attack speed increased to .35 and greatclubs gaining something else, maybe more stam drain? instead of greatswords being nerfed.
     
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  2. Ginger Magician

    Ginger Magician Wildtribe Mage

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    So true.He has spent all afternoon posting trash and stalking me on the forums.
    I have now had to bring a moderator in.Hopefully won't be seeing any more posts from him for a little while even if he is on ignore:)
     
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  3. Marvin

    Marvin Crypt Guard

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    I've done nothing wrong, all I do is post my opinion.

    All the mod said was post more detail in my replies otherwise it could be perceived as spam. That's no issue at all.

    Don't get it twisted friend.
     
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  4. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
    Staff Member Developer Team Lead

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    Why?

    The idea of a discussion is to figure out different options to test. Making incremental changes and testing those changes thoroughly is what will make us actually decide what changes should go in. Aventurine were completely clueless to this thought and only made big changes without proper testing. I believe BPG will do this correctly so I wouldn't worry about ruining any of the others.

    Another thing I believe BPG will do is keep all changes open for improvement through the life of the game. As players adapt and new things are discovered we my need to changes this stuff yet again in another year or more. This keeps things fresh.

    I believe it was the lower arc and lower range that turned people away. I know plenty of people that used clubs due to how cheap they were in comparison to the others. So regardless of resistances, if you get fewer hits it doesn't really matter. Sure, better players (better ping) would benefit by switching to different weapons, but then why would you when that margin of error can be removed by using something with more range and arc? This thought falls apart when discussing the polearm because it is way to slow and even with every hit landing the dps is terrible in comparison. PA doesn't have enough benefits to outweigh the slow speed.
     
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  5. Anthrax

    Anthrax Goblin Warlord

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    That day when Ginger Magician agrees with me. Where have I ended up and how did I get here!?!?!?
     
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  6. Yourlordandsavior

    Yourlordandsavior Chosen of Khamset
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    Greatswords were always the best even pre pole nerf.

    Polearms were always the worst 2 hander, their only virtue was ease of use due to 90 degree arc.

    Daggers while not that popular were fine because they filled a niche, they were used for PvE and inside wofs and houses and such.

    The reasons GC and GA were always shit was due to shorter reach than GS and slower speed, which not only affects dps, but slower speed also makes swings harder to time.

    also I'm 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999% certain GC GA and GS all had the same arc.
     
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  7. Heldana

    Heldana Windlord
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    Please.
    Nuyur is one of the best Posters here, showing a very deep insight to game mechanics and making so much thoughts for the dev Team and help them.
    I will personally bindcamp Andrew, if he doesnt get him into Alpha as soon as possible ... (i warned you, Andrews, better take my PM seriously <3)

    I wont get personal on you, Ginger, but the only Thing you ever did was forcing new Players out of the game.
    There is a reason, why every solid clan rejected your application ...
     
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  8. Anthrax

    Anthrax Goblin Warlord

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    Not sure why you liked my response Ginger...It wasnt a compliment.....
     
  9. Ginger Magician

    Ginger Magician Wildtribe Mage

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    As I have just been posting elsewhere Heldana when it comes to clans a player of my level and fame chooses his own clan.I haven't read one decent post from Nuyur yet for example just in this thread he posts the following:

    "Greatswords were cheaper to craft overall
    Polearms are just weird And the range, because of knockback, isnt useable in the way the other weapons do.
    I personally dont believe that greatswords are THAT much better than the other two options (club/axe)
    you'll still likely see a vast majority run GS simply because its been what people used for 3~4 years.
    so clubs did do more damage than GS.
    And by 1 type of combat, you mean using magic and melee mostly. But some people replaced (most of) the magic with archery."

    Even more gems from other threads:

    "Seems like any player who was a decent dwarf only crutched on the race advantages
    The only crafting i did in DFO were cloth pants.
    I got killed all the time, it wasnt because my char was bad.
    Out of those 20000 kills ginger, how many had played the game for more than say...15 days?
    Ninogan wasnt good, ninogan beat you...ergo?
    For dex archery (or daggers)
    What happens if 1 person, or 1 clan, owns 99% of all the ingame gold?
    You didnt get alignment off of killing people, only negative hits ofcourse."

    I could go on but you get the picture.He is basically an idiot who knows nothing about the game despite claiming to be playing from launch to end.
     
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  10. Heldana

    Heldana Windlord
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    yes, Ginger, i read his Posts and even if English is not my main language (or his) i understand and agree on what he says.
    Furthermore (just to remind a "Player of your Level and fame") i am officer of Zagenda, so every application to our clan is known to me (and was disussed internally).
    Shall i go on?
     
  11. Dufer

    Dufer Air Elemental
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    I don't believe so. I wanna say I remember kelet pulling up data about the differences and 2 of em were .55 and the odd one out was .50
     
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  12. Nate Thegreat

    Nate Thegreat Crypt Guard
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    No one can argue that the weapons were balanced. There is a reason everyone went for GS, it was cheaper, better range, faster attack speed, and the damage caps meant it was not different in magnitude (at end game).

    Lowing the speed of GS will be a tiny nerf but keep in the diversity, and if they balance the crafting costs the weapons would be quite well balanced.

    Hell if anything lowering the speed of the GS to be in line with GA/GC might not be enough to balance it. (seeing as it has higher speed, better arc and longer range). But its a good testing point to see if it balances it.

    In any case I think these changes should be made before the game goes live.

    Also polearms/daggers are utility and balanced as is. (not everything has to be best in slot).
     
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  13. Yourlordandsavior

    Yourlordandsavior Chosen of Khamset
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    I think he pulled dfuw values

    Could be wrong but atleast the emulator files have 60 arc for all 3 and while they could be dated theres nothing about changing the arcs in dfo patch notes
     
  14. Battle Smurf

    Battle Smurf Oak Lord
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    Let me be absolutely clear.

    Do NOT slow ANY weapon down.

    If you want to change something you can speed the weaker one up

    With that said here are my thoughts on weapons.

    Polearm up speed to .15 leave rest alone. Reevaluate after a couple months. If it's still not used just try .20 again. Personally I see the meta of piercing weakness being used more eventually so even at .15 this makes sense for an archery polearm user with self buffs and mana sheild and utility spells and heavier armor. I love two for one debuffs that give +7 damage per ranged and melee hit.

    Greatsword Change nothing

    Greataxe increase speed to .35 change nothing else (if you did that I'm using greataxe 100%)

    Greatclub guess what people no fizziles means heavier armor useage accross the board which means Great club doing more damage to metal geared people will probably already make it desirable. IF it still isn't used the solution is simply to lower bludgeoning protection a little more on heavy armor.or increase stamina damage. Keep everything else the same.

    Increase the hard damage cap so high end greataxes and polearms could be enchanted properly

    Daggers were fine at the end even on Alfar

    One Handers i'd really like to find someway to make at least a couple people TRY to use these a little more. The problem is any change also affects mounted combat.

    ALL vertical attacks should get 10% more damage

    Will edit in further thoughts on power attacks and one handers and racial weapons later
     
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  15. mcdoogs

    mcdoogs Chosen of Khamset

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    Hey guys, here's some R40 weapon values pulled out of the standalone's xml

    Code:
    -<SFMeleeWeapon>-<SFResourceName>
            <SFString Value="r_Talon Axe"/>
        </SFResourceName>-<SFWeaponAngle>
            <SFFloat Value="60.0"/>
        </SFWeaponAngle>-<SFWeaponRank>
            <SFFloat Value="40.0"/>
        </SFWeaponRank>-<SFWeaponReach>
            <SFFloat Value="2.35"/>
        </SFWeaponReach>
    </SFMeleeWeapon>
    
    Code:
    -<SFMeleeWeapon>-<SFResourceName>
            <SFString Value="r_Mercian Greatsword"/>
        </SFResourceName>-<SFWeaponAngle>
            <SFFloat Value="60.0"/>
        </SFWeaponAngle>-<SFWeaponRank>
            <SFFloat Value="40.0"/>
        </SFWeaponRank>-<SFWeaponReach>
            <SFFloat Value="2.5"/>
        </SFWeaponReach>
        </SFMeleeWeapon
    
    Code:
    -<SFMeleeWeapon>-<SFResourceName>
            <SFString Value="r_Dwarven Halberd"/>
        </SFResourceName>-<SFWeaponAngle>
            <SFFloat Value="90.0"/>
        </SFWeaponAngle>-<SFWeaponRank>
            <SFFloat Value="40.0"/>
        </SFWeaponRank>-<SFWeaponReach>
            <SFFloat Value="2.5"/>
        </SFWeaponReach>
    </SFMeleeWeapon>
    
    Code:
    -<SFMeleeWeapon>-<SFResourceName>
            <SFString Value="r_Dwarven Greathammer"/>
        </SFResourceName>-<SFWeaponAngle>
            <SFFloat Value="60.0"/>
        </SFWeaponAngle>-<SFWeaponRank>
            <SFFloat Value="40.0"/>
        </SFWeaponRank>-<SFWeaponReach>
            <SFFloat Value="2.35"/>
        </SFWeaponReach>
    </SFMeleeWeapon>
    
    Arc is the same across GA/GS/GC at 60, PA is 90. Reach is 2.5 for GS/PA, and 2.35 for GA/GC.

    Caveat: The standalone is outdated, and who knows what other modifiers exist in the code. I know i will never take the time to decompile it :)

    source: {dfstandalone}/data/dev/dfdata/xml-files/gamelogicinfo/weaponpropertylist.xml
     
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  16. Oriphus

    Oriphus Undead Dwarf
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    GS was superior choice mainly because it was the one weapon you could get a decent sticky back going with in group fights. I used Pole a lot and I know if I played perfectly 1v1 I would beat any other weapon, it meant using its advantage which was reach, so you played a little slower, a lot less exchanges and constantly on the transition zone outfoxing your opponent, but getting that perfect run was extremely difficult and I just wasn't that great a player to make it happen often enough but I do know that through almost flawless play, Pole was superior to the wild fast swinging of GS in a 1v1 situation. If you got rid of the cap damage from power attack on pole I would prob have taken it it over GS for group fights also :)

    I don't know what you want to take away from the above, for me I think it just says be very careful about the changes you make and once again this is probably a conversation to be having after you have gained access to the game again.
     
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  17. Viciousboxx

    Viciousboxx Crypt Guard
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    the reach on Greatswords and Polearms are exactly the same, the only difference is the arch, damage and speed.
     
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  18. Oriphus

    Oriphus Undead Dwarf
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    what can I say, if this was true (but certainly not how i remember it) then i can only respond by saying it was easier to hit with and keep people at reach, or perhaps because you had to keep people at reach due to the speed, either way the end result was still the same.
     
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  19. Ginger Magician

    Ginger Magician Wildtribe Mage

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    So you agree with all those posted statements even though they are factually incorrect or else ridiculous?
    I don't remember applying to Zagenda if I did it was only a troll for sure.
     
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  20. Heldana

    Heldana Windlord
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    1. they are not
    2. suuuure .. whatever floats your boat^^
     
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