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New Dawn is one step forward to release.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Brat, Feb 24, 2016.

  1. Rigon

    Rigon Windlord
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    QFT
     
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  2. Nuyur

    Nuyur Wildtribe Mage

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    Im not sure thats a fair judgement to make, especially not before hand.

    DFUW is horrible because the control and combat dont feel the same. (among other features introduced)
    If you remove rays, the control doesnt change. Combat might/will, but we had combat in DFO without rays when they had a cast time. So, its not like the game is horrible to play without them (granted, balance will always be a topic for discussion. Regardless of what you do).

    Now ofcourse there are game mechanics that could be added in that have greater implications, like some of the specialisations that are suggested or local banking. But a lot of the reasons im personally against them is balance issues. I dont think there would be a way to have the game balanced, if one has to manage a multitude of choices in any situation having to constantly adapt...only to be on par with a left click spammer who only has to focus on one thing. And the margins of how you fashion this is what matters.
    Lets say you play perfectly, you reach a point where playing as we did in DFO is the most optimal.
    You have long range nukes, aoe's for group fights, cc for kiting and helping friends, team heals, self sustain, mobility and utility, melee and archery.
    Playing this perfectly is absurdly difficult, comes with so many small nuances and choices at any given moment. That its debatable if you even played perfectly even though you made no mistakes. Perhaps another choice would have been better...
    So extremely complicated choices, with vastly different outcomes, combined with lots of fancy finger work to execute all these actions.
    If a left clicking melee+archery style is equal to this, why bother with all the difficulty.
    If it is better, then sure. Put in the time, learn and improve untill you have the upper hand. But then it wouldnt be balanced (strictly speaking).
    For me, balance means that the better player wins (most of the time).
    And i dont think spamming left click is very skillfull (yes fnights, aiming arrows is very hard).

    So it comes down to howmuch the difference is. How much stronger does this difficult playstyle get to be, before you cant not play it (competatively).
    And this is a point i cant decide on myself. On one hand, i really dont want some idiot fighting me and winning just because he picked a spec.
    But on the other hand, i understand that the difficulty to play the hybrid style to a high degree of efficiency took a lot of practice.
    Practice which most players will not do. Setting aside the grind, just learning to properly use transfers was already a big problem for most players.
    Watch any pvp video, and you will notice times where "nothing" is being done. Weaving in transfers in those moments is what better players do.

    So going off of a spec DnD want to introduce. You would give up staff use alltogether, and gain passive additional regen on stamina and health (you cant even spend mana outside of rage at this point). How efficient does this get to be, compared to casting transfers?
    Obviously it has to be less than what a transfer gives in the cooldown window it has. But what % is correct. To give up the necessity of having to cast them.
    These sort of questions are very important, because they offer windows to outplay them.
    If the efficiency rating is low (enough), you could literally beat them by casting stam degen on them and draining stamina on cooldown.
    "all" you would have to do is stay alive untill they run out (pots would extend this, but how many pots does one carry, whats the cooldown, howmuch does it give). Difficult, ofcourse, but these sort of things are what it comes down to in the end (when it comes to the top 5% of players).
    Obviously damaging them will drain their stamina aswell, so its not like you wouldnt be also dealing damage.
    (they also get bandages to replace healself and witchesbrew, so healing is another question).

    And without specific answers to these questions, and without actually testing them and fighting against it, i dont think you can say its a horrible idea to begin with.
    Destroyer had a lot of small things to them, which seperated the average from the best.
    And the best destroyers were scary as fuck, while the average destro wasnt all that impressive untill the scale got to a point where people get caught with their staff out consistantly.
     
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  3. aparks

    aparks Obsidian Golem
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    Actually read this block of text. I hope the BPG guys read it too. I couldn't agree more with this person. Less changes to core of the game and needs more content added. I feel ROA has many more hidden changes they want to implement to the core of the game that the community is unaware of or turning a blind eye to. Nothing so out of the world like dnd. But still changing the core of df. I beg ROA to put up polls before making core changes. I know they won't. But I'll still always push for them.
     
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  4. Fnights

    Fnights Earth Elemental

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    They aren't ideas i invent myself, they are facts and they will be implemented into the game with the title system they are working on atm, this is the main reason why i decided to play DnD and stick with it in the long run.
    I think that DnD with these new features can be able to lure in enought players to fill the world, expecially less skills players and roleplayers.
    Is nice to play with new people and not the same faces over and over.

    One of the main selling point, at least for me, is that i can play melee + archery and completely lock out magic. I've mentioned numerous times that my gold times of Darkfall were post-launch till the magic era, before that the holy trinity monobuild became the only viable choice (melee+archery+magic).

    As a roleplayer myself i found that period very sad, but fortunately after a while they introduced destro/magekiller, however something that pissed me off was the fact that i needed to rely on magic even with a full metal armour.
    And since magic is encoumbrance dependant i really dislked to have these huge penalties since i risked my full plate and my aim wasn't so special (archery is very difficult to mastery).

    Now DnD will allow me to compete with just 2 professions and discard completely magic and using bandages and boost regen to compensate the transfers and self healings.
    Is a great addition for my playstyle and i'm sure for a lot of players that didn't like the old jack fo all trades skill system, fulfill their hotbar with tons of spells, and using a macro to manage all these icons. Was very unpractical and against my minimalistic gameplay.

    Call me a bad player or a carebear, i accept this, but i prefer simplicity over complexity, using only swings, arrows, and bandages is the pefect playstyle for me.

    I know that you guys want the old system melee/archery/magic and you want that everyone rely on it for balance reasons, but really wasn't my cup of tea.

    To conclude i don't get all the hate and call names, and the angry, RoA will be the home of you old players that liked that old system, while DnD will be the home for a complete different experience, same old system + the title system for non-magic users.
    Will be a hell to balance? Who knows, from their replies they are pretty positive, after all they have the source code and they know numbers that we don't know, so i trust them and i trust their vision.

    That's all.
     
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  5. hayland

    hayland Dire Zombie
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    People that think everyone used some super mega hack macro to manage all skills/spells just to compete trigger me
     
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  6. Nuyur

    Nuyur Wildtribe Mage

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    People who think that balance is simple if you have the numbers and formula's they are used in piss me off.
    It isnt easy, even if you have all the stats in the game.
    How players use them, how effective it is to use in general arent things the formula shows.

    Not to mention that things that are hard to do should be rewarded.
    Not having to keep track of your stats because you have free extra regen and only have to spam pots+bandages on cooldown (or when needed) really isnt as difficult as constantly switching to a staff to keep your stats at acceptable levels.
    So i think that passive spec should be weaker on paper (at least).
    But clearly, those who play it will be against this.
    So no matter how its implemented, people will hate whatever balance it creates.
     
  7. Brat

    Brat Akathar
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    I only had a ray script. Other things were easy.
     
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  8. Finnad

    Finnad Air Elemental
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    I had nothing and not much even bound
     
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  9. Fnights

    Fnights Earth Elemental

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    Don't think so, because what's matter in the end are the player skills, and you can't balance player skills, if you don't hit anything because your opponent is better than you, you will lose with or without specs. Jm2c.
     
  10. SatanThroatSlicer

    SatanThroatSlicer Goblin Scout

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    u had stickyback macro
     
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  11. Nuyur

    Nuyur Wildtribe Mage

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    Really?
    So having to consistantly find the space to pull out a staff to do transfers to keep your stamina and hp up as a destroyer isnt more difficult than having a passive regen that runs 100% of the time regardless of what you are doing.

    You want to change that statement now, or should i go ahead and rub it in some more?
    The arguement i made is that if the regen is too much, everybody will play it because its simply better than taking the time to pull out a staff and do the casts yourself.
    If its too little, everybody will have to pull a staff out and do the casts themselves because the regen isnt enough.

    Now you are going to say "there's a middle point between, we just have to keep patching in beta. Thats what its for".
    Well, i agree with you that the value's can be changed. But it depends on HOW the meta is played. If near suicide runs is what the meta is (like it was in DFUW for a while, a DPS race to kill your opponent before he killed you) then the regen will give you an edge. But when the meta shifts, to out lasting your opponent and statting up (like it was in DFUW for a while, take all the healing) the regen will be weaker and cause you to lose.

    HOW you fight a fight, changes what is most effective.
    Thats completely seperate of what numbers are used. So no, balance isnt easy
     
  12. Fnights

    Fnights Earth Elemental

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    Is different, magic is encoumbrance dependant while bandages and regen aren't. So if i trade-off my magic altogether i can have better healings balanced with my simplified playstyle, like a mage can have better healings with a staff. Is called affinity.

    Make numbers now is just pointless, we have to try in game these changes before make feedbacks because indeed balancing is necessary.

    You don't have much trust in these new devs skills, but i'm not so negative, i want try this new system before make judgement, you should consider that if will be correctly balanced it can attract lots of new players.
     
  13. Nuyur

    Nuyur Wildtribe Mage

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    Dude, you sucked at playing destro. You thought plate armor was heavy gear. You never even used unburden or witches brew.
    You literally cannot say anything meaningfull about how combat was, so stop trying to make it sound like this is an improvement.
    And at this point, im confident most gear bags used by good players would be more expensive than your mob dropped crap. (just by enchanments used alone)

    A destroyer in a full dragon set could use unburden, combined with spell success and spell haste on his staff to heal up ALMOST AS EFFFECTIVELY as a player in robes. Now ofcourse, thats an additional cast. But you got so much more resistances, it needs to have a draw back somewhere.
    That you never used this, thats your problem.

    The passive regen means you dont need to cast. You could be shooting arrows, while getting stamina+health. You could be swining your melee weapon, while getting stamina+health. You could be masturbating IRL, while getting stamina+health. (ontop of normal regen+food)
    This means that players that use a staff, but are destroyer, need to find the time+space to switch to a staff to do something you get for free.

    If you want to say numbers are pointless, thats fine...but i think 1 in 5 casts were stat management (once a fight got going for mages. Destro obviously have almost 10/10 casts for stat management).
    So you are effectively getting 20%+ DPS, because you dont need to worry about health/stamina (and you dont use mana).
    This is both a huge buff, but you also do fuck all for it. You literally log into the game, and there it is.

    If thats as powerfull as a destroyer managing his own stats and doing similar things the rest of the time...why even bother with the casting.
    If its more powerfull, why even bother with the casting.
    If its less powerfull, you will rage its underpowered and needs buffs.
     
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  14. Fnights

    Fnights Earth Elemental

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    Good or bad has nothing to do with my argoument.

    Sorry, didn't have the money to buy more than full plate. Not everyone like grind or farm 24/7 to make gold and buy tons of dragon sets. Probably you are right, that i never experienced high tier destro, but this is another point.

    You can have only 1 active, or stamina or health, not both.

    But i will not play destro, you have misinterpreted my post, because destro use magic and i wont use magic, i will play melee + archery as dps with passive regen, bandages and less CD on potions as utilities, is a completely and different minimalist approach.

    Anyway i don't get why you are in arms, not every DF player like the old skill system, and moreover i'm not here to change the vision of BPG, nobody will touch your full hybrid playstyle and also there aren't global CD in this iteration so you can spam and rotate everything.
     
    #94 Fnights, Feb 27, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2016
  15. Johnjon

    Johnjon Skeleton Archer
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    Jesus Christ.
     
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  16. AdamDMC

    AdamDMC Gravelord
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    Right? it is like...why even bother trying understand what I am reading here.
     
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  17. PENETRATOR

    PENETRATOR Earth Elemental
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    Fnights, man.

    If you are not Xphier then you definitely act like him. You have a few good points (out of a 1000), but you usually have wrong reasonings behind everything good you say.

    You seem to not really understand Darkfall as well as vets do. By vets I mean people that played Darkfall and understood it's late game meta. You didn't underhand it.

    So you keep talking about the game without actually understanding the game.

    Please don't. It hurts to read. It hurts my brain and it hurts everyone else's too. You literally cluttering both forums with non educated walls of texts. People argue with you but you have some kind of mental block. It's impossible.

    So for the best of everyone, stop posting so much and quit arguing with people. Because you are 95% wrong. You might not see it but rest of us do.

    TLDR: don't be an Xphier
     
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  18. Nuyur

    Nuyur Wildtribe Mage

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    You dont see me telling Bill Nye how to do science.
    He's better at it, knows more stuff. Anything i say about science is something he knows, or something he knows more about.
    You know nothing about PvP in darkfall, you were so bad at it...anything you say is pointless.
    So it does change how i view your arguement.

    No, its the same point.
    Those mages that were pew pewing you into the ground were using the VERY BEST equipment they could.(in sieges)
    You were wearing shitty gear, with shitty weapons, using not even close to everything you could.
    Obviously you are going to lose, its like putting a donkey in a F1 racing scene. It wont win....

    That doesnt change the point though.

    You know that the word IF means....lets suppose this is true, think along with me. try and understand.

    But ok, just for you...

    If passive regen is as powerfull as a melee + archery as dps with passive regen, bandages and less CD on potions as utilities, is a completely and different minimalist approach, managing his own stats and doing similar things the rest of the time...why even bother with the casting.

    Actually that completely breaks the sentence hold on...
    If passive regen is as powerfull as Fnights, managing his own stats and doing similar things the rest of the time...why even bother with the casting.
    If passive regen is more powerfull...why even bother with the casting.
    If its less powerfull, you will rage its underpowered and needs buffs.


    You dont get why im voicing my opinion?
    Really...i mean...its ok for you to, but for me...clearly...i must be insane or retarded right?
    I was explaining to you why these sort of features are a balancing nightmare, which can change just because people change what they use.

    If you have 1 destro, 9999999 hybrid players. He is going to be fighting players with staff out a lot.
    If you have 999999 destro, 1 hybrid player. He is not going to be fighting players with a staff out a lot.
    No changes in the game, different results. This is what a meta game is.
    The game doesnt change, HOW its played changes.

    Balance features, especially combat ones, NEED to adapt to HOW a game is played, or things will become OP.
    If things are OP, players HAVE to play this.

    And you agree on this, because you rage about the pew pew mage style so much.
    So when we say that adding in all these specs, titles, consumables.... it wont change the fact that its LIKELY that ONE playstyle will be STRONGER than the others which will force everybody to play it.
    And then a patch happens, and everybody has to play that.
    And then a patch happens, and everybody has to play that.

    This is what FoTM stands for. Flavor of the month, because most companies patch on a regular basis.
    Darkfall didnt have FotM, because AV did fuck all to it.
    But because they didnt patch often, it also gave players to explore options, work around things.
    Bunnyhopping was in the game at day 1, but it wasnt used in the first 3! fucking years, because it hadnt been figured out yet.

    Games that develop over time, without patches changing anything, have a meta game.
    Games that develop over time, BECAUSE of patches changing (everything), have FotM builds
     
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  19. IsilithTehroth

    IsilithTehroth Gravelord
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    Actually DFO did have FOTM just not as bad and it pretty much just pertained to magic use. Rank 90s, Mounted Combat with elemental weapons, ray scipts, fire magic juggling. Destroy was an attempt to patch up the only hybrid/predominately magic play style.

    I do think Darkfall online would do better with a skill combat cap of like 1,500. I like how DnD aims to try to make Darkfall more than just pvp which the game drastically needs to keep sheep in. I don't agree with their armor changes and water combat changes however. I just hope ROA does something to diversify specializations and add stuff that isnt essentiall pvp.
     
  20. Nuyur

    Nuyur Wildtribe Mage

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    Ill agree with you that patches did influence combat. Ofcourse they would, its players adapting to changes in the game.
    I wouldnt call it FotM, because we all know AV didnt do monthly patches...
    But what was used, or was too strong, did change as the game got patches done to it. (which really just strenghtens my arguement).

    Destroyer was in the game for a long time before some players actually showed it was good. It got picked up and dropped really quickly once it got introduced because it wasnt good enough. It took time, practice, a change in resources available for players, to allow a small part of the community to become proficient at it.

    But again, NO PATCHES HAPPEND TO DESTROYER. Players figured it out, learned how to play with it.
    At what point do you let people whine that stuff is unbalanced, to let them figure things out?
    At what point do you patch things, to help the balance?
    A week, a month, a year? I think its very hard to say, and people's opinion on the matters will always be widespread.

    Which is what i was saying. Balance is something you cant make, because everybody views things differently.