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Otoan's Suggestions

Discussion in 'Game Design Discussion' started by otoan, Jul 7, 2017.

  1. otoan

    otoan Undead Dwarf
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    I posted this in another thread but it was just getting bogged down with people arguing with each other so I thought I'd post it here instead. I also added a few things.
    This is my personal list of stuff that spice up the game and possibly lead to a successful game:
    • Crafting specializations
      • Give crafters a bone and don't make it just a grind. This will give crafters something to work towards and be able to sell their product.
    • Weapon/armor Decay
      • Instead of making items hard to farm there needs to be some sort of decay process so people constantly need to farm instead of massing huge banks that never go away.
      • Get rid of the ridiculous costs of the higher end gear.
      • This is specifically towards weapons/armor. Materials can decay as well but possibly at a slower rate.
      • Make decay based on mob drop, crafted, crafted+ enchanted. The better the item the longer decay.
    • Weapon Degradation
      • There's nothing more annoying than farming a spawn with full dura armor and full dura weapons and lots of regs and loot on you to have someone just trolling around try to kill you and when you win they have 2 dura gear on and 20 of each reg. The risk/reward isn't the same for the PvE-er and the PvPer especially considering the PvPer usually waits until they are low stats just to jump them.
    • Weapon/Armor repair
      • With the 2 past suggestions there needs to be a way to keep the really good weapons that you come across/craft.
      • Improved Repairing could also be a crafting specialization.
      • The more you repair an item the more the max dura should degrade until eventually the weapon becomes useless.
      • Create high high end items in game that will restore the max dura of gear for people to fight over.
    • Mob loot balance
      • There are only a handful of mobs worth farming and there are areas of the map that are saturated with the good mobs and other areas that have a terrible selection. For example: wildtribe warriors drop less than half the gold of a varangian warthane though both are equivalent to kill. Warthanes also drop r40-r60 2-handed weapons.
      • Every area of the map should have a decent selection of solo mobs for gold and materials and the areas in between cities should have good spawns for groups to fight over.
      • All easy/medium and some hard spawns should scale with players.
    • More sand in the box
      • People say this all the time but no one does anything.
      • Houses could have been interesting but they ended up just being a terrible grind that people with no life, multiple alts, and macros excelled at.
        • Imagine if houses were relatively easy to get but hard to maintain. They had a high upkeep cost and if you didn't keep up with the upkeep cost your house recall was on a longer cooldown or required a reagent to use, your house was easier to break into, and eventually your house would be abandoned and up for grabs by the next person that was willing to pay the upkeep costs you neglected + the initial materials required for the deed. This would require people owning the house to be active and also stop individuals from owning multiple houses. (The upkeep cost should be more than just gold)
      • More ways to play. Dare I say it combat specializations. Nothing that's mandatory. Nothing that locks anything. But just get less of x and take more of y sort of thing. Fire spells do little damage, ice spells do more damage. Ice spells fly faster, archery hits softer. I don't know. These don't have to be OP. They just have to give someone a since of uniqueness.
      • Make it possible to live off a ship 24/7. Make it possible to live out of a house 24/7.
    • Reagent for portals
      • Pretty much said it right there. Make the reagent relatively easy to get but make it so it costs something to run around the map.
      • With that said redo the portal system. I've said it before. Why do some portals go right up to someone's backyard? Mehatil really has it hard. Not only does it have very few good soloable mobs around but it has 2 portals that go almost directly on top of it. One of which goes from right outside Appletown to Mehatil's arguably best solo spawn in the immediate vicinity: the duo wildtribe spawn on the island to the south. The other comes directly from human lands. Yssam is the only island that has 2 direct portals from main lands.(at least currently known)
      • The portals should have one in the middle of the islands that goes from that island to main land. There should be no direct paths from racial lands to the islands.
    • Bring back race wars
      • Everything shouldn't just be hunky dorey with all the damn races. Make it so races can attack opposing races. This could create future content like land towers in no mans land that give bonuses to entire race alliances instead of clans. This could also be a reason to stay blue(better bonus if you're blue) or in a clan that isn't ARAC. EDIT: And by bonus I mean a global buff(s). Only gold/materials/resources will be slit up amongst the winners of the actual fighting.
    • Create conflict around cities and hamlets
      • Give cities more of a bonus. Make city resource nodes regenerate a lot quicker but put them outside of walls so that people fight you for them.
      • Gives towers/city nodes a resource bin that has to be maintained to be used/regenerated quickly. Allow this resource bin to be lootable after breaking something inside of the city. This will make it so in times of low population that cities aren't just collecting a ridiculous of amount of resources for no cost and it'll also be a reason to raid cities even if they are keeping the resource nodes tapped. (Resource nodes should continue to regenerate even if the bin is empty but slowly.)
      • Allow cities to set taxes for houses in the surrounding areas. This goes with the sand in the sandbox idea for houses. This will make cities worthwhile but also possibly cause conflict if you set the tax too high and the villagers get pissed off.
    • Bounty System
      • Create a quest or group of quests to unlock becoming a bounty hunter. Make some part of the quests in an instanced dungeon. This will stop people creating alts for the sole purpose of becoming a bounty hunter.
      • People can put hits out on other players. Create stop gaps to stop people from abusing the system. Can't be done by a clan/alliance member. Can't be done by a person that has grouped with that individual in the last week. Something like this.
    • More fluff
      • RP Clothing(Not my personal idea but I've heard some people would love some RP clothing)
      • Dance animations
      • Possibly some musical instruments.
        • Think if you just created a few instruments(drums, trumpet, lute, flute) that can do basic notes and some sort of way to change the dynamics of the sound and then BPG could create events where people came up with songs for in game rewards.
      • Redo how the racial cities look. Add hubs where people can hang out instead of a bank besides buildings and a square.
        • Make buildings with places to sit down, chat with people, RP, find friends. Ex. Inns, bars, pubs. etc.
     
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  2. Fawley

    Fawley Infernal
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    wepon/armor decay benefits those with no life more than casuals and is a frustrating thing to experience.
     
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  3. otoan

    otoan Undead Dwarf
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    This list isn't to appease casuals. This change is a material sink which the game desperately needs if it wants to have any sort of longevity.

    These type of games shouldn't cater to people that only play a few hours a week. There are numerous games out there that cater to a casual mindset. You can't appease everyone and if you appease the casuals then the bulk of the non-casual non-hardcore people will get bored of the lack of content(People that play roughly 30-40 hours a week. They have job. They get home and play 3-5 hours a day and more on the weekend). This type of game needs content to keep people interested and not stagnant sitting in their city and having no reason to leave it except if they desire to find a fight outside of duels.

    With that said, I do think they need to make weapons and armor easier to get or craft. I don't think the decay needs to be so bad that you're constantly having to farm new gear. I just want it to be to the point that if you're hoarding stuff, eventually it becomes less useful.

    My idea is that the decay be based on rank and enchantment.
    Mob drop weapons: 1-2 weeks to get to 50% durability.
    Crafted weapons: 3-6 weeks to get to 50% durability.
    Enchantments will add an additional 1-7 weeks to get to 50% durability.

    At 50% durability there will be a 20% less effectiveness to that weapon/armor.
    At 25% durability there will be a 30% less effectiveness to that weapon/armor.
    At 5% durability there will be a 50% less effectiveness to that weapon/armor.

    With the ability to repair weapons and armor and with the extremely rare item that will restore the current and max durability of an item I feel this is a good system.

    Let's say raw materials somewhere between 3-6 months before they decay to 50% effectiveness. Let's say instead of going away completely they just require more of that material to make a finished product. After 9-12 months they decay to 25% effectiveness.
     
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  4. RootedOak

    RootedOak Oak Lord
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    I can't support weapon degradation at all.
     
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  5. otoan

    otoan Undead Dwarf
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    Why not? Did you like it when people would only fight in gear with <10 dura on it? The ability to repair counters this. BPG would also have to lower the time to gear(increase mob loot).

    What I'd like to see is an average pvp set be relatively easy for a person to obtain. Plate fillers, bone set, r50 weapons, q2 enchants should take 30 minutes to get the items required on Solo/duo spawns. One tier up: fp fillters, r60 weapons, bone set, q3-q4 enchants should take around an hour to farm on duo spawns.
    Then to make a repair from 50% to full would be about 10% of the mats required but the max durability will go down 10% until it becomes next to useless.
     
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  6. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    Weapon degradation sounds good on paper, I'm just not sure it's the best solution. The goal of course is to even out the value of an individual fighting with a full durability weapon vs someone with a low durability weapon (weapon/armor/whatever) and it is perfectly valid. The problem I see with degradation is you're just changing the variable at which people decide something is suddenly a PVP item. Adding in restoration has been brought up and the argument against that is of course devaluing crafting.

    Also why do we need to have both? If you have item restoration then why the requirement for stat degradation?

    I Imagine the restoration skill being a separate craft that required completely different items than what was used to craft the item originally. Having the max durability lower after each restoration, successful or not, helps to reduce the affect on crafter sales. Perhaps the item being repaired could have a change to be destroyed with less chance as the level gets higher. There could be different tiers of materials for restoration and each tier provides an increased success rate and reduced durability loss.

    On the flip side there could be a salvage skill and each item provides the same amount of salvage regardless of it's durability. Then it wouldn't matter if you looted something with .01 or you might decide not to take our your 2 dura weapons because you would rather get the salvage from it. The salvage should not be the same material you used to make it.
     
  7. Fawley

    Fawley Infernal
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    Proper gear degradation should occur from the Dev's creating content that makes you wear them down. When nobody goes farming in infernal and they just PVP in it then of course infernal gear is going to stick around in the game a lot. Either increase durability loss in PVP or make PVE content that people want to wear infernal to.
     
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  8. otoan

    otoan Undead Dwarf
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    While that sounds good on paper there is no content of which that can be done in infernal but not in a lesser set unless you change the values of the armor itself. Same with weapons. Except a select few mobs, daggers will always be king in PvE. And even those mobs are susceptible to some magic schools which means transmuting the daggers will increase dps over using another option.

    You come into problems when you try to make PvE content that makes people want to wear infernal:
    1. It has to be incredible loot to risk infernal sets so probably needs to be a group oriented activity which leaves out small scale/solo players from attempting it.
    2. It has to be hard enough that infernal sets are required to wear. Nothing in game currently requires an infernal set over a lesser set. Especially when you bring in buffs, buff others, spells, etc.
    3. Armor is not the only problem. Weapons are as well. And the content would have to be different then anything we've seen before to warrant using anything other than daggers on. Even mobs that are not susceptible to piercing usually have a magic school that they are weak to and then transmuted daggers surpass any other type of melee weapon except for the greataxe power attack at the beginning of course.
    Do you have anything more specific to add to this possible PvE content or ways to get around the problems that'll rise up with this?
     
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  9. Fawley

    Fawley Infernal
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    That is my point. Make armour matter and actually scale in PvE.
     
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  10. otoan

    otoan Undead Dwarf
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    The reason you have all 3 systems is so they coexist with each other. The ability to repair makes the decay and the degradation more of a feature than a chore. Yes this will change when a person considers the item pvp worthy, but it'll also change what happens when you get that item too. If you create a salvage skill as you've suggested than your introducing new items into the game instead of getting rid of items or creating a sink. My thought process is that items should be easy to get but the sink is also large making it hard to hoard stuff for months/years so that the game doesn't stagnate.

    I think repairing should be one of the crafting specializations I mentioned. These should be semi powerful but any character is only allowed one or two specializations. Specializations could be:
    • Armor enchantment - Small chance of putting an enchantment onto a piece of armor.
    • tailoring enchantment - same as above
    • Weapon enchantment - same as above
    • Bow enchantment - same as above
    • Staff enchantment - same as above
    • Weapon damage - take the range of stats that a weapon can get, cut it in half, the crafter only crafts it in the top half.
      • Optional: Possible +1-2 damage on top of that
    • Staff damage - same as above
    • Bow damage - same as above
    • Armor protection - take the range of stats that an armor can get, cut it in half, the crafter only crafters in the top half.
    • Tailoring protection - same as above
    • Repairing - capable of repairing items. Most people will select this.
    These are just some ideas. Possible other ideas are making improving mob drop weapons into crafted. Increased durability. Increased duration on food as a chef. Random buffs on food as a chef. The list could go on.

    As for repairing, I was thinking of stuff that would be used to repair weapons: possibly replacing the hilt of a weapon. Maybe a grindstone to sharpen the weapon. New string for a bow. New handle for a bow. Possibly leather items. Handles. I would make it materials that can be found any where in the world though with the exception of r60 and above.
    --- Post updated ---
    How would you suggest doing this? You want armor to scale differently in PvE then PvP? I don't code here but I imagine that would be a nightmare.
     
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  11. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    I disagree with this and here is why. When you repair an item you are keeping it in game for a longer period of time. The longer that item is in game, the less requirement there is for a crafter to replace that item. By salvaging it you are actually removing that fundamental item from the world, meaning you have to acquire a new one to use for most activities in game. The salvage material you get from the item would not include whatever material the item was made of, but instead provide something else that is used elsewhere.

    It's not hard. We already did that with shields.
     
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  12. Down Syndrome

    Down Syndrome Fire Elemental
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    I really dislike the idea of decay. I don't have tons of playtime, the thought of shit sitting in the bank and disappearing because I don't have time to use it would make me stop playing.

    I'd rather see salvaging old weapons/armor than repairing, basically for the same reason that kilrain said.
     
  13. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    I don't hate the idea of decay, but because of reasons like this it's not very feasible. Even if we took precautions like only having the items decay while you're logged in, then people would use alts to store their loot.

    Taking any kind of action to prevent hoarding is going to have an adverse, and likely far more detrimental, effect on more casual players. I understand the goal. I just can't think of a way to handle it to be quite honest.
     
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  14. Down Syndrome

    Down Syndrome Fire Elemental
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    I don't see the problem with hoarding at all. It doesn't take anything away from the game, the hoarder was out in the world while collecting it. Why should people be punished for going out and collecting items for future use. With the exception of a couple of things the economy is essentially infinite.
     
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  15. otoan

    otoan Undead Dwarf
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    But the crafter is required every time you repair an item.

    If you cater to casuals, there will never be enough sinks for the majority of the players. If you make gear easier to get than casuals will always be able to log in and easily get a set and pvp with that set. If the idea is to allow casuals to hoard enough that they just log in, get a set from the bank, pvp, lose it, and log off, then you've already lost because this game is pretty much the same as a game of LoL.
    --- Post updated ---
    Because of the long term effect this will have on the game.
     
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  16. Down Syndrome

    Down Syndrome Fire Elemental
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    And the long term effect is?
     
  17. otoan

    otoan Undead Dwarf
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    Everyone has everything. Everyone is self sufficient. People sit in their cities and duel and only leave to hit other cities or sea towers. There's very little need to farm any more. People spend their days linking their thousands of eldritch cinder. Most themepark MMOs deal with this by putting out expansions which increase the max lvl and put out better gear. I don't think this is the right way to go.

    My idea is that they increase mob loot to make it easier to get an average set. So even casuals will be able to log in and have a pvp set within 30 minutes. How long do you think it takes right now to get a regular pvp set? FP fillers, bone set, r50 sword, blackbolt, 100 of each reg, q2-q3 mats. A couple hours? Maybe more depending if you have access to a selentine golem. I want to lower this time to gear process but institute a material sink that negates the hoarding aspect of increasing loot drops. I want to increase the loot across the board. Not add some badass mobs, possibly in dungeons, that have great AI, and are unique and take 5+ people to do it and require you to wear infernal that has all the loot. I want it to be available to solo all the way to guild level play.
     
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    #17 otoan, Jul 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
  18. Down Syndrome

    Down Syndrome Fire Elemental
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    Your idea is just trying to make artificial content instead of actual content. People need a reason to go out into the world, forcing people to endlessly grind gear isn't content it's tedium. What would make this even worse is if/when they add more things to do, if they go with your idea of gear decay since you can no longer stockpile large amounts of gear you would be constantly grinding gear(artificial content) before you could go do actual content. Which is detrimental to casual players. Don't forget that gear also breaks with use in this game unlike in other mmos where once it drops it's there forever. That would be like if EVE made ships break down over time and minerals and ore just vanish over time.

    And to answer your actual question about 1.5 hours give or take +trading time from anywhere on the map. It's far more time efficient to farm gold and buy what you need than to farm the items themselves.

    Players like me with limited play time are more likely to farm/grind for a few days then go pvp for a few days, if I only got ~2 hours to play on a day, spending the first 30 minutes grinding out a gear bag then the next 15-20 minutes crafting/getting gear crafted and enchanted. There's still not really enough time to go on a good roam unless you're living right next to a portal to a pvp hot spot.

    I'd rather see durability lowered than to see items just disappearing from my bank.
     
  19. otoan

    otoan Undead Dwarf
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    Who said anything about disappearing from your bank? Also why would you have to constantly grind? I put the times that stuff would decay. It would take a couple months of you not touching it for the weapons and armor to wear down completely. The decay could stop at .01 durability so you didn't lose the item. Or maybe it became a broken item and you had to repair it to restore it.

    The way you describe my idea to me is that you think that stuff is just going to be deleted on a daily basis faster than you can replace it. This isn't to make a constant grind. Far from it. This is to make the game have longevity by giving sinks to the game so that people can easily start up the game and not feel a year behind because they didn't start at the beginning. This is to stop an extremely small playerbase living on individual mounds of gold, content in their bank staring/dueling a year from now.

    I haven't played EVE but I'm pretty sure they have their own sinks. Isn't it true when you lose a ship, most of your ship disappears and the people that kill you only get small parts of your ship? I don't want to go that route because it reduces the rewards of PvP. Also I hear it takes over a year of inactivity to even compete in EVE. Two completely different games.

    The game should not be geared towards appeasing casuals. BPG needs to figure out what type of player they want. Who do they want to play? This already is a niche MMO that has hardcore full-loot aim-based RPG combat. Do they want to cater to casual players and make everything in game based around the time constraints of a person that can only play 5-10 hours a week? You can't appeal to everyone. If you appeal to one group you're going to hurt the other group. This is where DFUW went wrong. It tried to appeal to every faction and pleased none.

    I love how people use this phrase 'The game needs content' but don't actually give any opinions on what that content should be. You know how hard new content would be to balance? Most likely it's going to be grouped based. So any individual not in a large clan is left out. It's going to have to be rewarding so you know the top clans are going to be camping it. And it's just going to stockpile the richest players banks. Making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

    I gave plenty of good ideas for content. Scaling spawns, monster loot balance, changes to housing and cities, etc.
     
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  20. Down Syndrome

    Down Syndrome Fire Elemental
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    If it drops down to .01 dura it may as well just break and disappear. If the game becomes so tedious that it's only for no lifers you won't have an extremely small playerbase staring at their banks you'll have no playerbase because the game won't be able to pay for itself. You're also wrong about why other games add new dungeons and gears and level caps. It has nothing to do with the gear and everything to do with people getting bored of the same content over and over again.

    In EVE the ship is destroyed and everything on the ship is RNG destroyed or dropped. You can go do fleet warfare and be useful from day 1 in EVE. This game has more in common with EVE than any other popular MMO.

    I'll go ahead and repeat myself, if they only appeal to no life kids the game won't be able to sustain enough subscriptions to cover server and development costs. They don't have to only appeal to no lifers or make a bunch of concessions for casuals, the easiest way is to shoot for the economy to be balanced around the midpoint.

    Content can be simple as long as it's something to do. Even something as simple as a magical ball spawns randomly in the world, player picks it up they're now marked on the map for everyone in the game and a visual effect on the character, every 5 minutes or so it gives loot scaling for the longer it's held. Can't be taken in dungeons, npc cities, player cities, on boats, in the water or recalled with. When the player is killed, the ball goes to the player who ganks them. Or they can drop the ball after a somewhat long stationary timer and it respawns randomly in a new location.
    There you go, content that doesn't require killing the same mobs endlessly to get them out in the world and encourages pvp.

    It doesn't matter if content makes the rich richer, because it's not making the poor poorer. The game's economy is not zero sum, it's practically infinite. One person or group having more doesn't mean there's less for the rest of the playerbase with the exception of housing and cities.