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PvE, PvP etc.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Inositol, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. Inositol

    Inositol Obsidian Golem
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    So for this post I'm going to be operating under the assumption that the PvP mechanics for RoA are good, they might not be perfect, but they're good. Afterall, the PvP mechanics are why this game still exists today.



    If a mechanic exists whereby PvP is generated for the sake of itself, it's destined to fail. A very small subset of players are motivated by the prospect of potential PvP, because most players aren't that good at the game. The majority of this small subset of players who *are* motivated by PvP for the sake of PvP are still driven by external factors, such as prestige or padding their ego, and an even smaller minority of players are motivated in the long term by the inherent fun of PvP in RoA, and the reason this is the smallest subset of players is because the vast majority of these types of players can have just as much fun dueling without the hassle of having to regear after every fight.

    For sustainable mechanics that drive PvP, PvP should be seen as a hazard, not a goal, because that's what PvP is for the vast majority of players - a hazard. Let's say that an average player is given the opportunity for great loot with a % chance that they're going to run into other players and be forced into a fight. If the chance of PvP occuring is set at 0%, then almost 100% of players would be willing to after it, but then the "great loot" stops being so great, given enough time. If you set the chance at 10%, a smaller number of players would still be willing, but the majority would probably risk it. If you set this chance to 100%, then all but an *extremely small* percentage of players would be willing. Logically, what type of players would be waiting for you? They've accepted that they're guaranteed to get PvP, so that means a few things; They're confident enough in their ability that they're willing to fight all comers, and the logical conclusion of this is that they're not 'average' players. They might not be the best of the best, but even if they're in the top 10% of players, this equates to guaranteed death for close to 90% of players, with a bit of fuzzing as players approach the 90th percentile. Now if you incorporate number of players, we get closer to assured death for all but the top 1% of players, or a group of generally equal or greater size and skill. - This is Billboards, btw.


    So let's do a thought experiment: Imagine if RoA was fun / engaging enough to stand on its own as a singleplayer game. Imagine if the PvE / skill progression was engaging enough so that even if you were the only person playing the game, it would still be fun. Now imagine that level of engagement incorporated into the PvP MMO environment... You might see where I'm going with this. The % chance of PvP would *never* be 0, and it would also *never* be 100%, it would just happen naturally, and more often between players of comparable skill (At least more often than now...)

    Now you might thinking "Easier said than done..." but you'd be surprised. Darksouls started a trend with its unforgiving combat, and this trend has seen darksouls-lite mechanics incorporated into most recent singleplayer AAA titles, such as Code Vein, and the new Star Wars game, and at its core, it's the same mechanics that have existed in PvE-focused MMOs for a decade: Allow monsters to pose a threat to the player, but allow players to play reactively to this threat in order to mitigate it. Whether it's "don't stand in the fire" mechanics that have existed in MMOs for a decade, or a giant monster visibly gearing up to swing his sword at you, they're the same thing: The player is given a prompt, and failing to react appropriately to this prompt results in a penalty, or damage being taken / death.

    How these mechanics could be incorporated into RoA: Let's use a Minotaur King as an example (traditionally a 7k mob, the last tier of mob before Boss): Let's say that the new Minotaur King has a base health of 1,000 (a reduction of 85.7%), but it also hits players for 300 damage. If given enough time, a player could either dodge / avoid the attack, completing avoiding damage, or they could parry it, receiving 60 damage. If you just changed the damage and health of the Minotaur King right now, Melee wouldn't be an option, because the attack animation / damage tick of Melee isn't lined up, (as is the case with around 80% of monsters), but engaging it from outside of ray range would still be a viable option, as it would only be able to cast bolts and 90 nukes. Avoiding bolts from a distance is trivially easy, so if it were made to only cast 90 nukes, you'd have a fairly engaging PvE experience under very specific circumstances. Fighting Minotaur Kings solo would be a risky endeavor, as miscalculating the trajectory of a single 90 nuke could result in 300 damage, and with its decreased health, it wouldn't devolve into a fight of attrition as you stat out from consistently taking ticks of 60 damage. These mechanics could slowly be expanded upon for other monsters, and more forgiving versions could be introduced for lower-tier monsters.

    Boss encounters would need the most "dev time", as they would need some XML-edited skills / spells that encourage teamwork / coordination, but the ingredients for these already exist in-game, they just need to be tweaked to encourage specific, predefined player behavior.

    tl;dr: Improving PvE is the most important thing the devs could focus on right now, most notably resulting in long term, sustainable, natural PvP.
     
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  2. Void

    Void Varangian Warthane
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    Lol a no brainer, it’s a shame you have to lay it out in such detail but still risk not being heard.
     
  3. Inositol

    Inositol Obsidian Golem
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    This is the 4th time I've laid it out, each time in increasing detail...
     
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  4. Void

    Void Varangian Warthane
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    Good on you for trying when close to 90% of dfo players have given up. I quit becuse of how bugged damage was getting from combat defacing.
     
  5. The Red King

    The Red King Black Knight
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    I agree with your post but keep in mind Darkfallers always complain.

    Champions back in the day were just like this.People said they were unkillable because they hit for 400, guess what? Don’t get hit. Champs were more fun to me to be honest before they made them easier for the shitties. Now they are just sponges.

    Second of all there is no way they can code any of this so pretty much it just ends with that. Shit they could make the spell reflect spell that they cast actually work.

    but more challenging Pve would be great in the long run, but also keep in mind the economy is already ruined due to how many high end mats drop at a time.

    More people and time would fix the economy if they made some adjustments but I don’t see that happening with the one patch a year tactic.
     
  6. Little Lamp

    Little Lamp Goblin Shaman

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    Personally, I don't play the game because there isn't enough pvp, but I wasn't always a pvper and even when I was I wasn't always pvping

    I think taking away the grind was a good short term change to get everybody on the same level, but as somebody who HATES grinding I really think there needs to be a grind. 110 stats and level 4 in all necessary combat spells/melees is absurdly quick, cheap, and easy to get, its one of the only grinds I've been able to do multiple times in ANY game. With the grind the way it is, there is almost no reason to farm anything that doesn't generate either 1. a rare resource you need for high level gear or 2. an insane amount of money to buy the resources you need.

    I don't know how to approach this without a relaunch, but my best guess would be to implement gear that drops from monsters at very low drop rates that are very high value if achieved (think runescape drop rates, 2-3 minute boss for a 1/512 drop rate, similar to old peerless deepblades, etc.) The problem is that gear isn't very valuable in this game, especially when you consider that this is a game in which gear really doesn't make that big of a difference (even if an even skilled player will always beat a lower skilled player in worse gear, you can easily 1v2 a good player in robes)

    Another issue I have with the game is: what are we playing for? I have been super poor, super rich, and at this point my bank is just filled with 5 dura q4/some q5 gear, and thats all I need. I have the regs I need, the arrows, and the money to buy what I don't have when I do need it. The game lacks anything to grind for once you have a character thats viable/level 5s, 110 stats, and a decent stockpile of gear. Sure the 120 grind is long and expensive, but it really isn't enough, some clans were willing to grind it but to me it was a chore to even go out and fight them over the spawn. Rare ores are great for making more gear, but why wear new gear when .5 dura is just as good? Why craft and risk full dura infernal when a 10k fullplate set is marginally worse on a mage? When a q3 1 dura cobra is marginally worse than a (market estimate based on what I saw listed) 200k q5 cobra staff

    Darkfall has no end goal, which I think a lot of games like WoW/runescape that are very successful suffer from, the difference is those games have LONG grinds with MANY long grinds spent at bosses before you even reach the next tier, hoping to get a rare drop. Darkfall is honestly just a grinder with no grind, I didn't play DFO but I imagine the game wouldn't have been remembered the way it was if everyone was maxed after a month, which is the situation we are in now.

    As long as there is no reason to play the game, nobody will play the game. There is no high end gear, *there is no gear thats untradable, undroppable, but has a chance to decay on death to nothing, we lack everything that makes an MMO worth playing, we have no cool questlines, no bosses that drop sweet stuff but have to be mass farmed at a shot, all we have is PvP, and when there isn't PvP there isn't a darkfall.

    *I think it'd be though to balance but soulbinding gear that can only destroy itself with a low (1/10 or something) droprate on death is worth it, take the focus away from just killing people for their gear and put it towards fighting over something worth fighting for. For an equivalent look at runescape, the BIS capes, gloves, and other items are untradable and gotten from drops or quests, and most mid game content that is very good is untradable too (fighters torso.) This game suffers from a "do something just to do it" without an underlying reason or goal.
     
    #6 Little Lamp, Nov 29, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  7. Inositol

    Inositol Obsidian Golem
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    The first step would be to adjust damage and health of a single mob, and I'm fairly certain they can handle that. Step two would probably be adjusting that same mob's quickness (I think adjusted quickness values are to blame with animation sync), and adjusting the quickness value of the weapon the mob uses. They've done all of this before.

    I could ramble about economic strategies for the game literally all fucking day, but I think making the core of the game fun is the highest priority, even if it pains me to throw economic caution to the wind in the short term.
    --- Post updated ---
    I agree that the game needs very long term goals in addition to the (mostly) short term goals we have now, but I also think having the main mechanic through which you grind being in its current state (soul crushingly boring) is a more pressing matter. More grind can always be introduced with longer term goals, but I'd rather not have those goals be locked behind a wall of time and tedium.
     
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  8. Blaze

    Blaze Frostjarl

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    I like the idea of making mobs progressively harder, not in the sense of just making them hp sponges but changing their overall health to be lower, but increasing their spells and mechanics to force the players to play around it and in turn make them better, is the idea right? and also make the pve engaging.
     
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  9. Inositol

    Inositol Obsidian Golem
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    If you had to sum it up, you've pretty much got it. My earlier threads proposing these changes were more focused on how / why these changes would make PvE more engaging / better overall, and this thread is more focused on the cascading effect that improved PvE would have on the rest of the game, but the core message is the same - Better pve pls
     
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  10. Blaze

    Blaze Frostjarl

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    can you post your other thread so I can read up on it.Thanks!
     
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  11. Fenrir Frauki

    Fenrir Frauki Akathar
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    Yeah right man... the economy is ruined due to duped gold. Even with high end mats being easier to get, I'm still able to sell them for easily 3-5 times what they were worth before... People are too lazy to go out and farm them, and yet the same people seem to have an endless supply of gold. HMMMM?
    Fuck off with your soul bound gears and quests. Not everyone is just happy with having 110 stats and q3 gear, some of us seek out the best gear and stats possible. You realize how full of shit you sound saying there is no grind, yet you openly admit you don't have 120s and q5 gear.
     
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  12. Inositol

    Inositol Obsidian Golem
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  13. MaxiHori

    MaxiHori Akathar

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    Why someone interested in pve doesnt play final fantasy instead of darkfall is beyond me
     
  14. The Red King

    The Red King Black Knight
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  15. franchisee

    franchisee Windlord

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    Seems plausible
     
  16. Void

    Void Varangian Warthane
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    WhoooooSHh
     
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  17. Inositol

    Inositol Obsidian Golem
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    My only regret is not pre-connecting the dots / making the information super digestible. I still want the same changes implemented, and I still think they should be one of, if not the highest priority. I get that you're joking, but it's too fucking real, and I hope I don't have to write a 9 page essay in 2 years to fill in the blanks that I've left here.

    inb4 "if the game is here in 2 years"
     
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  18. Sero

    Sero Menhir Sentinal
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    Its taking how long to get TCS, dyes, new armours?

    Like Lear said. Before you'd go out and smack mobs just to level, now you're done in a week and thrusted into the endgame... which is?

    Not only was the RoA launch grind fine, but it was also necessary to give BPG leeway to pump out more content. Players "complaining" they only lost that one fight due to character advantage was probably the greatest content creator this game ever had.

    Even if what you said could be implemented, what do I get for completing it that I dont already have? The bank is stacked, the character is maxed, what more is there to go for?

    We do need PVE but PVE needs a purpose. 75% of that purpose was a character grind. Now its PVP for PVP sake, and the only way to fix it is to increase the power gap with stronger items/more character skill levels (make the grind bigger), who knows if this will even matter with how much excess material and gold is floating around or relaunch with a better grind.
     
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  19. The Red King

    The Red King Black Knight
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    One way to fix the grind, but they would still have to adjust what we have now, its fucking 1 1/2 days which is ridiculous to max a character.

    https://forums.riseofagon.com/threads/reincarnates.16535/
     
  20. Little Lamp

    Little Lamp Goblin Shaman

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    And who are you? I'll log in to show you how worthless your Q5 gear is with a q3 FP bag

    Do you have 120 stats? I'll log into my alt and show you how worthless your Q5 gear and 120 stats are vs a better player in q3 & 100-105 stats

    What MMO other than this DOESNT have quests? Quests are like, basic content in RPG's, if this wants to be an MMORPG then it should have quests, plain and simple.
     
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