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Reasonable Combat Tweaks - Moving Forward

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sero, Aug 10, 2018.

  1. Sero

    Sero Fire Giant
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    Not going to rant about how bad it is currently, yadda yadda, I'm just going to give honest feedback on how to get things up to a level we can move forward with.

    IMO: Archery Damage is fine, Melee Damage is Fine for both playstyles.


    1. R90 Splash Damage.

    I'm not sure if this is something that was a recent change, or has recently come to light, frankly it doesn't matter.

    Current splash Radius:



    R90s currently need only be shot near the target to be able to do full damage (I believe needles falls under this as well). This has caused mages to throw on added spell damage onto their R90s and allows them to spam needles/unholyflames/R90 near their target to do full DPS, while rays, bow shots, fireball, and bolts all need to land directly on the target for maximum damage.

    Changes:

    - 3rd radius test damage should = the second radius test damage.

    Projectile spells should have to hit their target to do their full damage, it rewards aim, and will help ease potential TTK.

    2. Mage VS Heavy Gear Set


    Personally I'm getting tired of the argument of "Well my gear costs more so I should win" heavies like to use, especially due to the fact that in order for a mage to mage, bone has to be the limit that they throw on themselves.

    So some simple changes can be done now (I know you guys have more materials planned, but these should be quicker to help adjustment).

    Current Filler Comparison:

    upload_2018-8-9_18-13-41.png
    Material cost roughly: 50-100 Gold
    VS
    Material Cost Roughly: 1200-1500 gold

    Ok, clearly there is a large discrepancy here. So bringing Bone (the maximum filler for the majority of a mage set) to cost near full plate would help with this. Can be done a couple of ways:

    - Increase in Gold cost + increase in Amount of Material used, (10 skeleton bone, 10 leather, 250 gold)?

    OR

    - Add an extra material requirement (Selentine Ingot/Veilron ingot/Neithal Ingot/Dragon Bone)

    The point is to bring the cost of mage gear up as to equal balance the cost of living of the playstyles.

    3. Staves and Magnitude.

    The main problem here is with the magnitude changes, it required every staff ever used to have high end magnitude enchant on it to be viable. The damage differential is far to great to leave home without it, so some simple base number changes could help a lot.

    Current Meta Base + Blackbolt:
    [​IMG]

    Firstly, let's bring Blackbolts back into the fold.

    For a long time they were the go to staff for mage viability, I understand the need to shake things up, but completely brushing them aside does the community an injustice. Increase the cost, make it take a selentine ingot and increase it's baseline to bring it up to par with the new magnitude changes.

    Next let's tighten up the gap on enchants and exchange some of the pressure with the staff itself. Roughly puts us at something like this:

    [​IMG]


    This decreases the gear gap necessary for staves while still adding that extra edge for those that have the cash and want to fork out the extra Quality of enchant.

    If the current mage DPS output is a problem, you could even take it a step further and lower the New baseline along with magnitude changes, which allows the potential DPS of a mage to be lower.
     

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    #1 Sero, Aug 10, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018 at 6:24 PM
  2. tic tac

    tic tac Dire Zombie
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    see, this is productive. Now we can debate specifics. GOod post

    I think the staff changes specifically would be perfect.
     
    #2 tic tac, Aug 10, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  3. Blaze

    Blaze Crypt Guard

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    Actually Like everything that is said, i agree 100% with what you said about the dmg from r90s, I like the idea for what you suggest for staffs
     
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  4. onslaught

    onslaught Black Knight

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    Agreed 100%. Great post.

    It would be nice to test the magic changes on test server.
     
    #4 onslaught, Aug 10, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
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  5. kilrain

    kilrain Oak Lord
    Staff Member Team Lead Developer

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    Something to consider with r90s is the "newbs need a grenade launcher" idea. Perhaps instead of messing with falloff at all we lower r90 damage to a reasonable amount and remove falloff reduction entirely. This gives a consistent damage for players with poor aim and giving even more bonus for players that can consistently hit r50s, bolts and rays.

    When it comes to the skill bonuses I think we should remove them entirely and implant the directly into relics. I could remove the ability to add skill extensions directly to skills and revamp the system to work with relics instead. This would also provide a good platform for relics to build from.

    Something that wasn't mentioned was field AoE's. I've had some discussions about them on Discord and feel the best solution with them is to simply lower their damage. If a field AoE does 50-60 damage across 10 players it is still useful for hitting multiple targets, but essentially useless in a 1v1 scenario.
     
  6. Sero

    Sero Fire Giant
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    Doing some good damage is one thing, but doing full damage is a problem. This isn't a newbs grenade launcher currently, it is meta. Splash damage, statting and parrying.

    Melee is already a noobs grenade launcher. You can backpeddle and go hit for hit in melee and bring a vet to 20% e z.
     
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    #6 Sero, Aug 10, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
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  7. Andrew

    Andrew Obsidian Golem
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    Thanks for the constructive post, we've been discussing combat in design meetings as we hear the feedback and aren't satisfied with the current balance, it is a WIP.

    Time to kill (ttk) is still too fast and we want to increase it so it isn't just a dps race.

    Some of our goals on what we want to bring to combat are:

    1) Increase fight times so it isn't a blur/over so fast with little chance for comebacks as well as back and forth fights.

    2) Increase viable playstyle options to have light, medium and heavy armoured builds with hybrids mixed in between.

    3) Simplify combat and balance skills/spells better. More viable options to prevent everyone using the same abilities/rotations. This will likely include removal of the current spell upgrades with tweaks to some spells to compensate where needed.

    4) Balance costs of playstyles better for armour and weapons to be more equal. This includes cost changes on crafting recipes and new mastery level items/rare materials to even the high end

    5) Add more skills/spells to schools to allow playstyles to stand on their own more as a primary style: New melee and Archery abilities, more spells to give each school a unique flavour with basic spells/abilities that each has to make them viable to stand on their own.

    6) Add in a lot more diversity in builds and skill/spell selection through relics and potentially other specialization options, new mechanics and choices.

    7) Re-evaluate current enchantments and balance to provide more viable choices, remove some of the "must have" imbalances making certain enchants a requirement.

    8) Making viable PvP gear affordable with higher tiers offering a small bonus at a high cost. Gear will always matter and the more expensive/higher ranked gear will offer an advantage but we don't want it to be a divisive "I win button" among equally skilled players.


    We're open on how to achieve these goals and aren't married to any specific idea. The above points though are what we've come to from player feedback and our own playtesting/design meetings. We want to see 10 warriors on the battlefield with 10 different playstyles, not 10 of the same playstyle with little variation. We know we're not there yet but this is our end game.
    --- Post updated ---
    The idea is that the r90's would not be a high DPS but would be reliable hits of lower damage, more accurate spells would be more DPS but require more skill. This is where you have the "noobtube" in games where it allows players to at least do something while they learn the game and once they have some basic experience they find new more effective tools.
     
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  8. WithoutShame

    WithoutShame Windlord
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    1.) Lowered splash damage sounds good idea. BPG idea of a noob tube being needed has it's logic as well though. I think it would be good just to test BPG theory, leave the aoe as big as it is or even increase it, but lower the damage by a lot.

    2.) I think BPG already said they were going to put in mastery armor for mages, ala New Dawn style. Probably just keep things how they are until those are implemented.

    3.) Not sure I am reading this correctly. For instance with the new chart q5 bonestaff will have more magnitude then before?
     
  9. Sero

    Sero Fire Giant
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    All would increase slightly, yes. I just based those numbers off of the Q6 gem, minor tweaks could occur ofc.

    The main idea is the damage being based around the staff more than the enchant.
     
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  10. The Red King

    The Red King Celestial
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    I still feel this is the way to go:


    Add 1.5X to the back heal multiplier to players. Add Haste / Rapid Shot / and Iron Skin back in but make it 1/2 of how good it used to be.

    Revert normalization of all R90's / Field Aoe's and R50's - Being different is cool, in fact go a little bit more with the difference but don't go crazy SMALL FUCKING MOVES - NOT 10's, I am talking 2 maybe 3 more points of stam / mana / extra damage. This will create diversity. Make it where the smaller the AOE the higher the damage, this way you can pick accuracy for higher damage vs shitty aim for average damage.

    Remove the arrow enchant, this will make it so less shit to have to have to make a gear bag. This will make archers better again and be where they should be.

    I think you should add 1 point to each transfer and 2 points to each heal - this will increase the TTK and bring it back to the old days where people who could transfer / heal well could beat a DPSer that wasn't super accurate.

    Lower stamina damage on great club to 10, I think its 16 right now? Also increase damage on great axe by like 1 or 2 to even out the weapons - nobody uses great axe - make small 1-2 point moves until they are balanced.

    Damage should be like this Bolts = highest damage / rays = middle baseline damage / needles and R90's that are unmissable towards the lower end and field Aoe's = the lowest damage.
    Could be like this i.e. 45 - bolts / 38 for rays / 33 for R90s and needles / 25 for Aoe's - something along the lines to keep the damage somewhat to where it is now, numbers may need to be higher.

    I would like you to make it where 15 magic encumbrance is equal to zero encumbrance in terms of speed - this will essentially make high end mages take 2.5 damage less in 4 piece dragon, but they will do less damage due to the encumbrance this will allow mages to wear good gear out in the field, and they will look cooler too.

    Make Orkish boomstick, the cheaper version of Sarracenas with less damage and same speed / make black bolt same speed as cobras with a tad more damage - very small buff. These will be the economy staves.

    Add jump to Pungeant, because why not, it will make the spell a little more user friendly for the newer players. DO NOT add jump to all spells.

    We want fast paced, high skilled fun combat, not splashy slow combat that wrecks everything.
     
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  11. MWTaylor

    MWTaylor Community Manager
    Staff Member BPG Representative Game Designer

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    Thank you Sero, this is the kind of feedback we encourage and are looking for.
     
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  12. Johhny Mad Dog

    Johhny Mad Dog Air Elemental

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    Thank you for this. I completly agree. I actually suggested making blackbolt vaible again in another thread too.

    If they up the cost of bone armor they mights slightly up the protection too but from what we are hearing there are comming with a tailoring mastery anyway.

    As developrs are saying. I'm not sure if the damage of r90's need to be lower. The splash damage should be lower so people who hit their targets are rewarded for it.

    I hope they take your post in consideration!
     
  13. negocromn

    negocromn Black Knight
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    I disagree completely with this.

    First, there is no specific need for a "spell for players with bad aim". Aiming is the easiest and most naturally learned part of the game, so much that you can find loads of bad players with good aim and very few (if any) good players with bad aim. The streamer Newp for example was pretty much clueless all around but had very good aim.
    If you want to make the game more accessible you should continue to improve NPE, continue to improve hotbar functionality/keybinding, start introducing simpler playstyles with the relic system and so on.

    Second, no one wants the type of radical change you are proposing. Any combat related changes should always be as small and precise as possible, as the idea isn't to remake anything but to tweak and diversify it a bit. That's it.
    Pretty much the whole current situation is a result of radical changes, stop it.
     
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  14. Kalos

    Kalos Varangian Warthane
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    Xpiher confirmed.
     
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  15. JEDIMind

    JEDIMind Infernal

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    Good post, I did not follow the mage staff stuff cause I just don't know anything about that so let the people who do figure it out.
    But I agree. Bow damage is good, melee damage is good. Radius need to be looked at. Cost of mats is a good way to go.
     
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  16. Sero

    Sero Fire Giant
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    The thing is, current bone armour keeps mages on the same level (actually higher imo) as destros currently. A new tier could be added thats say "Dragon" tier, but the current iteration of bone armour is strong enough to warrant a price increase at least to the same levels as full plate.

    Personally I think direct hit R90 damage could be lowered a tad (like 10%), but I would be happy if we start with changing it so splash damage =/= full damage.


    I don't know about this. Since the increase to protections, and reduction in backhits, it's harder to DPS through healing in general.

    Crossheals are still the best form of healing in game.

    I like this thought. It doesn't make sense to me that bolts are so weak currently, as they are on bow shot levels as the hardest thing to land in game.
     
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    #16 Sero, Aug 10, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  17. BeatIt

    BeatIt Black Knight
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    great post sero
     
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  18. onslaught

    onslaught Black Knight

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    What about introductory classes? Is this something that has been considered? A 'spec' that lowers damage but increases AoE / splash for noobs? Could have one for healing, mage, fighter, archer. I'm just spit balling here.
     
  19. Sero

    Sero Fire Giant
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    Covered via relics.
     
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  20. onslaught

    onslaught Black Knight

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    Ahh yes, this could work if done correctly.