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Recent patch balance

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Inositol, Nov 1, 2016.

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  1. Inositol

    Inositol Obsidian Golem
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    So, while I like this patch, it irks me that it's another (low key) nerf to mages.

    Destroyers can potentially do more bow damage.
    Destroyers can potentially do more melee damage.
    Mages can potentially do less magic damage.

    A: Melee: Buffed (possible counter)
    B: Archery: Buffed (possible counter)
    C: Archery & melee defense: Buffed (Possible counter to A & B)
    D: Magic defense: Buffed
    E: Magic damage: Unchanged, or nerfed as a result of D.

    Because it was a change to races, this is more of an overarching change that has the potential to affect the mage/destroyer dynamic, but it's not necessarily a buff or a nerf in every anecdotal match up. But if you take the total cumulative damage being done by Destroyers(or heavy hybrids) and the total damage being done by mages, the potential damage output of Destroyers increases, while the potential damage output of mages decreases.

    An argument that people keep bringing up is that if I roll mahirim, then I won't be affected by the damage buff to bows and melee, but what if I'm fighting an alfar, mage vs mage? That's still a nerf.

    Destroyers were already viable, and then BPG buffed them with an additional archery upgrade(mana shield / mage hunter + mage killer). This tipped the balance slightly more in their favor, something that's hard to measure because the balance between a Destroyer and a mage is reliant on what gear the Destroyer is wearing. In 2012 DFO, the turning point was right around the full Infernal level, assuming the Mage is using a Q4-5 cobra, helmet, and chest. (A good reference for this was the Infernal cap on nearly every tournament for the last 2 years of the game)

    What these patches are doing is shifting the "sweet spot" of balance, and making gear that has the same grind requirements more effective. A good player in full infernal took a mage's entire stat pool to kill before the patches(again, assuming a Q4 cobra and Q4 stam eff chest). As of right now, when a mage spends 15-28 stats on a spell, assuming they don't miss, they can expect to break even in stats as a result. A dragonsbreath that costs 18 stats to cost does 18-22 damage to a Destroyer, meanwhile the Destroyer can hit a mage for upwards of 52 damage(to the front) for the stat cost of a whopping 3ish stamina.

    Another counter argument is that I'm basing this all off of 1v1s, but Destroyers shine the brightest in a team fight, that's already their bread and butter. Any buff to a Destroyer in 1v1s is just further emphasising the devastating effectiveness of a Destroyer in a group setting.


    So uh.. BPG, Destroyers were viable, they are viable, and this of course is all dependant on the gear that the Destroyer is wearing, but the gear that a mage wears is static. They're always going to be wearing a Q4-5 infernal helmet, infernal boots, gauntlets, and a cobra. That's standard, and cheap enough to run as a daily bag. A mage can't spend more gold and resources for a better staff, or better armor with less encumbrance, their end-game viability is and always has been dependant on their opponent's gear, something entirely out of their control.


    (This post is directly entirely at the end-game, higher-tier play, if you're reading this and thinking "This isn't realistic, I can't wear that kind of gear every day!", well, there are players who can, and do.)

    Also, you're going to want to say that most "elitists" are mages, but literally half of my clan are Destroyers. We literally have to force people to swap out to mage for sieges so that we have a healthy ratio for buff-others. And my clan is widely considered the most "elitist". They didn't always play Destroyer, but they do now...
     
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    #1 Inositol, Nov 1, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2016
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  2. Nate Thegreat

    Nate Thegreat Crypt Guard
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    Yeah mages are kinda nerfed by this. High end play will go to to the destros.

    That being said who cares the meta will change even more as new additions are added. These race changes HAD to happen to bring back diversity in races.

    While I agree with your argument I think it is too early to care enough about it. The meta balance will change many more times just by adding content.
     
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  3. Inositol

    Inositol Obsidian Golem
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    Yeah, I'm hopeful about future patches, but I'm only posting this because I'm noticing a trend of continued low-key buffs and nerfs, and I'd rather not continue down this path of unbalancing the game. Hopefully BPG is aware of the effect that their patches is having on the metagame and balance, but if not, I'd like to make them aware.
     
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  4. Aristos Giannes

    Aristos Giannes Cairn Giant
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    I'd like to see bolts given the same small knockback that arrows have. I think it'd be enough of a tiny buff to make using bolts as a way of doing good, efficient DPS without killing your stats. Atm I don't have any issues with heavies using a transmute as long as I don't screw up with kiting, but due to the slow cast speed it's easier to get caught in a bad transition. A small bolt knockback would create a good balance imo.
     
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  5. RootedOak

    RootedOak Oak Lord
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    Great thread Rex.
     
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  6. Nate Thegreat

    Nate Thegreat Crypt Guard
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    You're not wrong, but I played on DND and thats the place you could see that trend. The entire balance is fucked over there with the combat changes and things like giving spell haste to destroyers.

    But even with their combat imbalances its still a fun game and honestly doesn't detract much in late game pvp.

    I guess my point is it'd be really hard and take a lot of really hard work/incompetence to mess up pvp balance significantly to where it is not fun. So sit back, relax and enjoy the ride and if its still shit at launch complain then.( or close to launch).
     
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  7. Inositol

    Inositol Obsidian Golem
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    I'd just like to have the same option that Destoyers do. I want to be able to pour more resources and gold into my bag for higher viability. As of right now, the amount of resources that I can throw at my bags is capped well below the cost-to-viability cap of a Destroyer.
    --- Post updated ---
    I don't want to get to the point that the game is launching with lopsided balance and frustrated players losing to factors outside of their control. We're far, far from that, but every tiny step closer to that isn't necessary, and completely avoidable.
     
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  8. Aristos Giannes

    Aristos Giannes Cairn Giant
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    It would be cool if they removed all caps from the game. So stats could go past 450 with enchants, weapons could go past 1.0, and a corpsecall with a Q5 mag would actually be a thing. You could carry around one of those and switch to it for all your rays. It would probably keep the TTK pretty similar to how it is now while increasing the potential cost of high end gear bags.
     
  9. aparks

    aparks Obsidian Golem
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    Yeah destros are buffed now. The new bows add to it also not sure of you mentioned that in the thread.
     
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  10. RootedOak

    RootedOak Oak Lord
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    Switching staves for rays is cool and all but weapon switching isn't flawless. Especially for higher ping players this can be enough of a problem that staff switching for rays isn't worth the risk and I think that gauging the game in that direction might become unfair for them.

    As for myself I'm content with my 29-35ms ping to pull out a Darkscepter and automatically fire the ray in two clicks with no macro. With AHK you could make it 1 click for Darkscepter + ray (instant cast in game UI macro of course).
     
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  11. Super Star

    Super Star Oak Lord
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    Removing the damage caps would be god awful, and no this wouldnt be a plus for mages because of a shit corpsecall you can ray with occasionally. You think corpsecall rays are going to do more than any melee weapon or bow going over cap? Not even close.
     
  12. Scrubby Bear

    Scrubby Bear Eodrin
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    The cost gap is entirely due to armor.
    Mages don't get anything better than bone. Bone is the 'best' they can wear with 0 encumbrance.
    Other than that they are limited to a few pieces of metal from feather enchants.
    However bone shouldn't be buffed or nerfed because its really in a perfect spot of price, availability and effectiveness.
    Really mages just need something better for 0 or near 0 encumbrance armor sets.
    Actually they need 2 sets.
    One that is equal to bone but better in magic protections, and one that is equal to bone but better in physical so they still then have to choose.
    Make then use q4+ bone and/or and rare metals.
    Shouldn't be vastly better, just a few dmg off the physical or magical with a full set.

    Also racial staffs should get armor penetration or something to make them more viable compared to fast staffs. Not on field AoE's of course, but for everything else. You give up a lot of combo potential using one so you really should get something in return. Darksepter and corpsecall should be able to go over 1.0 as well.
     
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  13. RootedOak

    RootedOak Oak Lord
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    Here's some destro changes in RoA that I've written on the forums here in the past:
    • Aquatic Shot is default on all characters now. This has unlocked Mage Hunter to be available to all destroyers without fear of being completely useless in water combat.
    • Mana Shield is no longer locked from Mage Killer users. Mage Hunter on a very heavy geared Destro brings them closer to the hard cap on protections, so Magic Shield is an alternative to Mage Hunter here and offers even more protection than Mage Hunter at the highest gear levels.
    • Encumbrance based fizzles were removed. Fizzles are when spells fail to cast due to random chance. This is currently only possible now through a debuff spell. This was a major factor that kept destros vulnerable to failing a heal or utility spell in combat due to high encumbrance on heavy armor.
    • BPG recently created new slightly slower bows that have much higher damage. So new r50 bows have the damage of an enchanted r60 bow.
     
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  14. Knar

    Knar Competition Winner
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    As far as mage bags go, that will probably be fixed when they add the tailoring mastery. I think that is the root of the problem with the destro/mage balance.

    The cost for a good destro gear bag is so ridiculous right now, and with everyone running around in bone sets or robes with cobras there's really no point bringing out good sets even if you can stomach the grind. I've been grinding up 10 good gear bags for 2 weeks hardcore, and I probably have another week to grind before they're finished. Those bags can be easily lost to someone who grinded for a couple hours for an equally viable bag.
     
  15. Aristos Giannes

    Aristos Giannes Cairn Giant
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    AHK wouldn't even be needed necessarily, DnD actually had a nice system where you could assign a staff to specific spells. It was insanely smooth, perhaps too fast and easy even.

    As to staff switching I do it -all the time- since I use transmutes and I actually like the delay. I can purposefully precast something to prevent my transmute from coming out when I'm already casting a transfer with a black bolt for example, to instead have a faster casting next spell. So like if I want to cast magma I'll load it up early to stop my transmute from coming out as it normally would so I can cast it with a black bolt.
     
  16. helgrik

    helgrik Infernal
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    Best to play dwarf if you're going mage.

    1) dwarven perseverance(don't have to mana to stam nearly as much)
    2) dwarves look sick in bone
    3) barrel roll
     
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  17. Aristos Giannes

    Aristos Giannes Cairn Giant
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    Transmutes already do that. You just have to stick to the one school obviously, unless you want to carry around a bunch of transmutes. Giving that ability to r80s would make all the separate transmute staves redundant.
    --- Post updated ---
    How would you know how much damage a 1.3-4 staff would be capable of doing? Unless you have the calculations with you I think you're just pulling conjecture out of your ass and calling it fact.
     
  18. Super Star

    Super Star Oak Lord
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    Well unless that ray is going to be doing more than a melee weapon when suggesting damage cap should be lifted(which it wont), then you are wrong. Call the caps a bandaid fix, they are in place for a reason and have actually balanced TTK extremely well. Everyone seems to want more dmg!!! more hp!!!, more this more that. Do you want to go back to a die in 4 hits meta? Do you want to have to re-balance everything? Everything you change effects combat in some way or another, too many of those changes and you unbalance things. If you say remove all caps, it means all caps. If you are specific to only a dmg number on a staff cap, then thats different.
     
  19. RootedOak

    RootedOak Oak Lord
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    I heard about DnD's thing, but I think that system removes the weapon transition mental game of Darkfall. I might be wrong I didn't play their game.

    As for staff switching, I thought I knew what you were talking about. Then halfway through the paragraph you lost me. Not sure what you mean.

    With AHK I mean you can set it so that it pulls out the staff like DND, but you have to fight the 200ms built in switch delay plus ping (so 232ms for me). So the code goes something like this off the top of my head, I don't remember the LUA syntax:

    MouseClick(Right)::
    SendInput(Darkscepter Key)
    Sleep(10)
    SendInput(RayKey)
    Return
     
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  20. BeatIt

    BeatIt Obsidian Golem
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    this thread is useless and sux like ur last video

    the racial/weapon change were needed and BPG is doing a great job atm, yes it need some small fix. my only concern is the human buff other duration.
     
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