Welcome to the Rise of Agon Community

Create an account today to engage in discussions and community events on the Rise of Agon forums.

RoA Magic System Revamp

Discussion in 'Game Design Discussion' started by Ryco Stormeye, Jul 21, 2020.

  1. Ryco Stormeye

    Ryco Stormeye Crypt Guard

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    210
    Aims

    1). To make each spell school have its own flavour.
    2). Allow using a single spell school as a competitive PvP choice.
    3). Increase damage type debuffs in PvP
    4). Make relic buffs to a single spell school desirable
    5). Make choosing different staffs other than fast casting staffs more desirable.

    N.B. This document is for the devs as a design doc for magic changes not really for the player base so I will not be responding to player base replies. I know many of our current player base will jump all over this with negativity and without constructive critism (Isn't our comminuty the best!). Also I wanted to get these ideas down and out of my head :)

    Changes

    All advanced schools to have a Bolt, Ray, R50, AoE and R90 type spells.

    All bolts to share similar travel speed, aoe size and cast time.
    All R50s to share similar travel speed, aoe size and cast time.
    All AoEs to share similar travel speed, aoe size and cast time.
    All R90s to share similar travel speed, aoe size and cast time.
    The differences comes in the damage type, stat damage and flavour of the school. This is to reduce relearning muscle memory and aiming (leading) when moving between spell schools.

    Rays to share a global cool down but have cool down reduced to 1.5 sec so you use only one Ray that is available every 1.5 secs like the 6 are currently.


    Fire -Fire damage, Medium average damage, 5% stamina damage, flavour: medium knock-ups

    Change inferno knock-up to current fireball knock-up
    Change magma knock-up to current inferno knock-up

    Water – Cold damage, Medium average damage, 20% stamina damage, no knock ups, flavour: Stamina drain

    Icestorm put on the standard R75 AoE cool down and given a low damage model so its not just a blind.

    Earth – Acid damage, Lower average damage, 10% stamina damage, no knock ups, flavour: Acid damage does higher damage to Leather and Bone Types armours

    Damage hole put into leather and bone armour types for acid damage similar to lightning
    New acid ray added to Earth magic (Copy paste frostbite and change to Earth colours).
    Impale moved to greater magic and have its damage lowered a bit, keep as Arcane damage.
    Metor strike moved to greater magic and have its damage lowered a bit, keep as Arcane damage.

    Lightning - Lightning damage, Lower average damage, 10% stamina damage , no knock ups , Flavour: Lightning damage does higher damage to Metal armours.

    Holy - Holy damage, High average damage, 0% stamina damage, no knock ups, Flavour: High health damage

    Arcane Magic school renamed to Holy
    Holy school to gain a ray and R50 (can copy paste frostbite and shards and change to Holy colours).

    Unholy – Unholy damage, Medium average damage, 20% mana damage, no knock ups, Flavour: Mana drain

    Necromancy renamed to Unholy (we don't raise the dead after all)
    New unholy school to gain a R50 can copy paste shards and change to unholy colours.
    Deathfog put on the standard R75 AoE cool down and given a low damage model so its not just a blind

    Witchcraft – Infliction damage, lower average damage, Flavour: dots and infliction damage with no resistance on armour.

    Witchcraft to become the Infliction damage type school (An advanced school, locked by destro etc)
    Witches brew renamed to healing brew and moved to Greater Magic
    Venom made similar to other bolts, damage changed to not be overpowered and put into witchcraft at lvl 1 unlock
    Rend put on R50 shared cool down, its debuff changed to infliction damage and put into witchcraft at lvl 50 unlock
    Toxic Rain moved to Witchcraft unlock lvl 75
    Needles moved to a R90 unlock in Witchcraft and its damage increased to be inline with other R90's considering armour.
    Flesh Curse from Greater, moved to Witchcraft

    Spellchanting – to be removed

    Move all spellchanting spells to greater magic

    Greater Magic – Arcane damage, lower damage, Flavour: No resistance on armour except jewellery and no reagent cost for damage spells. Includes current utility spells

    Flesh Curse moved to Witchcraft
    Eldritch sphere moved to lvl 1 unlock of greater magic
    Impale moved to greater magic at lvl 25 unlock, damage lowered a bit
    Missile Fury moved to a R50 unlock and R50 shared cool down, R50 average low damage
    Mana Blast moved to lvl 75 unlock of greater magic (AoE)
    Metor strike moved to lvl 90 unlock of greater magic and have its damage lowered a bit, keep as Arcane damage.
     
    Methodico, onslaught and Porch like this.
  2. Troy

    Troy Chosen of Khamset
    Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    392
    Yes please
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  3. SirJames

    SirJames Goblin Warrior

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2020
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    23
    This would help newer players as well.

    I think it's a great idea.

    From here you could begin to add specializations, and really balance things out.
     
  4. Isaac Clarke

    Isaac Clarke Varangian Warthane
    Hero

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2016
    Messages:
    800
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    wat
     
  5. SirJames

    SirJames Goblin Warrior

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2020
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    23
    Sorry,

    In order to add diversity and balance things out*
     
    Troy likes this.
  6. Bakken

    Bakken Goblin Warrior

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2019
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    30
    Even if this was the perfect possible magic layout I think everyone agrees the last thing BPG needs to do now is more combat changes lol
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  7. Smile

    Smile Skeleton Archer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    63
    "Witchcraft to become the Infliction damage type school"
    No, no, and no. Darkfall's core concept is risk vs reward. To implement whole school that uses damage that no armor has protections for is retarded. People risking infernal/dragon armors would have same protections against this school as nakeds. I've seen such schools already in action (in DND - btw, this suggestion feels like a copy paste of DND system).

    "Greater Magic – Arcane damage"
    Similar as above.
     
  8. Ryco Stormeye

    Ryco Stormeye Crypt Guard

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    210
    These spells that are already in game, already do arcane and infliction damage and are not used regulaly and not seen as viable. They need a slight adjusment even if they stay in their exsiting spell schools. Just looking for them to be viable, not meta, not flavour of the month, not overpowered, JUST viable.

    Example: Currently (Int 120, Staff Mag 0.62) Rank 5 Exploding charge does 56.8 damage. Infernal has 17 Lightning protections. So thats 39.8 damage. Rank 5 Needles does 33 damage on the same guy if hes has his infliction sheild running (3 protection). So if Needles did 38 damage its viable, 33 is way too low.
     
  9. Smile

    Smile Skeleton Archer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    63
    Sure, sure, probably that's why noone is using impale as number one ray. Oh wait. Everyone who can does.
    Now let's introduce two schools full of arcane and infliction spells. Terrible idea.

    In a game where better and more costly armor is only better because of protections it gives to introduce two schools of magic full of spells that deal damage that does not take armor's protection into consideration is bad. Very bad.
     
    #9 Smile, Jul 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020
  10. Ryco Stormeye

    Ryco Stormeye Crypt Guard

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    210
    Its only bad if the damage is MORE than a regular spell can do. Currently as per my example above most of these spells do LESS.

    Int 120, Rank 5 Spells, Mag 0.62 staff damage vs a Full Infernal weaing destro with 3x arcane jewelly

    Bolt - Eldritch Sphere 25.5 vs Ball Lightning 34.5
    Ray - Impale 35 vs Lightning Bolt 24.7
    R50 - Missle Fury 29.2 vs Lightning Strike 34.5
    AoE - Mana Blast 27.5 vs Thunderstorm 42.8
    R90 - Meteor Strike 37.4 vs Exploding Charge 41.73

    The only one that does more is Implale. Also the arcane spells would do the same damage on anyone as long as they are weaing the 2 ring and necklace, a bone user, full plate user etc. The lightning spells would do alot more.

    I dont disgaree with your concern but its about the damage they do at the end of the day. Not that they cut through armour. If they cut through armour and do worse damage they are not going to be used. They are thus useless and need to be either removed or reworked. There is no point having spells in game that no one uses.
     
  11. Smile

    Smile Skeleton Archer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    63
    No, it is not true. The point of very costly armor providing zero protections is still holding on. It breaks risk vs reward rule. Also why did you stop at a guy in infernal? What about full dragon set damage comparison?

    But even in your comparison (lets assume numbers are correct, as I did not test it myself, I just remember what happened to heavies vs infliction/arcane magic schools in DND) three out of five spells do quite similar or even more damage.
    I guess that explains why did you put Mana Blast and not Toxic as AoE, as that would probably make 4 out of 5 that do quite similar damage.Insect swarm - 5 out of 6. And the numbers would have looked even worse compared to full dragon set (high-end armor providing no protections was my point).
     
    #11 Smile, Jul 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020
  12. Ryco Stormeye

    Ryco Stormeye Crypt Guard

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    210
    I put Mana Blast instead of Toxic rain as Mana Blast is Arcane damage and Toxic is Infliction.

    Here is the Infliction numbers for you to see.

    Int 120, Rank 5 Spells, Mag 0.62 staff damage vs a Full Infernal buffing with Infliction Shield (3 points of protection)

    Bolt - Venom 36.2 vs Ball Lightning 34.5 (N.B. Venom has a long cooldown so cant be spammed)
    Ray - Insect Swarm 39.5 vs Lightning Bolt 24.7
    R50 - Rend 39.4 vs Lightning Strike 34.5
    AoE - Toxic Rain 43.6 vs Thunderstorm 42.8
    R90 - Needles 33.0 vs Exploding Charge 41.73

    Here I think the numbers are fine except Needles which is a bit low. Maybe Insect Swarm and Rend may even need a slight decrease. The numbers aside. We already have a Bolt, Ray, R50, AoE and R90 for both Arcane and Infliction damage types scattered about mutiple magic schools. Putting them under their own heading i.e Inflcition School is more a administrative thing than a creating a new school thing as the spells already exist.

    You seem to be against any spell which cuts through expensive armour. Would you prefer these existing spells be removed from the game?
     
    Troy likes this.
  13. KoKane

    KoKane Celestial
    Wealthy

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Messages:
    677
    Likes Received:
    849
    Are you testing direct hits for that?
    Meteor does more damage on AOE / in-direct hits, than a direct hit.

    Last I checked anyway
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  14. Itwas Luck

    Itwas Luck Gravelord

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2016
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    499
    sick abs dude
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
    Troy likes this.
  15. Ryco Stormeye

    Ryco Stormeye Crypt Guard

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    210
    I did a direct hit, I didnt know about the indirect being more. I will retest and check, thank you.

    Tested. same damage on direct and indirect hits
     
    #15 Ryco Stormeye, Jul 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
  16. Smile

    Smile Skeleton Archer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    63
    I would prefer damage type on them changed. What I'm against though is building whole magic schools around damage types that actually break core darkfall concept of risk vs reward. It feels so wrong in a full loot game to have such spells that your idea to introduce magic schools based around such damage types sounds like a concept of someone who gave his suggestion not much thought.
     
    #16 Smile, Jul 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
  17. Methodico

    Methodico Winterbound

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2016
    Messages:
    477
    Likes Received:
    332
    -Allow using a single spell school as a competitive PvP choice.
    This Is what im asking from ages, will help new players to understand pvp, same fun less tedious and more differences. Same for weapons, you have to choose what you want to use, 1H sword or 2h or knife or Hammer or ..... Sword and shield have to be a class, if not you Will parry without shield= less defence more damage class. Something like that.
     
  18. KoKane

    KoKane Celestial
    Wealthy

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Messages:
    677
    Likes Received:
    849

    Sorry, I meant compared with other r90's. The AOE splash of meteor is more damage than r90's, but direct hit it is less damage than the r90's..
    ..which isn't even relevant to your test.. so I'm not sure why I posted at all:unamused:
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature
  19. Ryco Stormeye

    Ryco Stormeye Crypt Guard

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    210
    Ah I get what you mean now. Yes the spash of the metor strike is strong as it seems to always be the same.
     
  20. onslaught

    onslaught Black Knight
    Affluent Loyal Patron

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,303
    Likes Received:
    846
    I like this, pretty good post.
     
    Collapse Signature Expand Signature