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Ship Fishing and Alts

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Raap, Jan 17, 2020.

  1. Raap

    Raap Wildtribe Mage

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    Hey folks,

    Just a quick post on 'Trawler' fishing.

    BPG more or less lifted this from UW, but along with it came identical problems (and why I personally would have disabled trawling/scraping in UW until a system revamp).

    This is a form of AFK income. The problem with AFK-anything is that it promotes alting. In DF1 specifically this feature is problematic because the oceans are very large. I'd like to propose a few low-hanging fruit tweaks as well as some more intensive changes, to remedy this while also making it more appealing to do on 'main characters';

    • Easy tweak: Make the activity no longer an alt activity. Make the rate of fishing significantly faster, and make ocean tiles drain significantly faster (and therefore containing less items), forcing players to move a lot. Ideally you'd empty a tile in about twice the amount of time it takes you to traverse one with the 'Trawler', meaning you do have to sit still every tile for a while (exposing yourself to boarding), but not be able to sit in a spot for so long.
      • Reduce fishing time in a map tile from ~1 hour to ~8 minutes.
      • Increase the fish rate from once per ~2 minutes (roughly 30 procs per 1 hour tile), to once every ~30 seconds (roughly 16 procs per 8 minute tile).
      • Because danger zones are few, I propose they take three times longer to empty, with matching fishing rates, in order to maintain their value.

    • More involved change: Further reduce incentive for alting, by attaching Equipment Tier to the loot yield.
      • Change the current loot drop rates for 'rare' items to require an Equipment Tier of at least 4.
      • Raise the maximum 'rare' loot drop rate an additional amount for Equipment Tiers 5 and 6.
      • Revert the change to loot crates partially by changing the crates you get at T6 back into regular Resource Containers, while keeping Jetsam for lower Equipment Scores.
      • Alternative solution: If linking Equipment Score to this system is too difficult, make a more expensive ship capable of fishing to make up the Risk vs Reward aspect. The Barque might be one good candidate for this, as it is considered a useless ship.

    • Feature Request: Every 2 hours, a random ocean tile is highlighted on the map as "Shipwreck" (ideally a smaller radius at the center of the tile, instead of the whole tile). This system would really change this activity from a side activity, to potentially a main revenue stream for players into naval content. Fishing within this tile (or radius) grants the following:
      • Danger zone level fishing rewards.
      • The fishing proc rate is once every minute.
      • The fishing area does not deplete until the two hours elapsed.
      • Once a highlighted "Shipwreck" tile is depleted, the system takes a 30 minute cooldown before randomly selecting another ocean tile.
      • Bonus: Add a very small chance for a Kraken tile to get flagged as "Shipwreck", the fish proc rate here would be once every 30 seconds, but you'd need to kill the Kraken(s) to actually use the area.
      • Bonus: Add a new one-time task for fishing with a 'Trawler' within these highlighted "Shipwreck" areas.

    This could be a stepping stone to future changes to make naval content more appealing in general.

    Edit: Numbers in the post are examples, the logic behind them being 'raise the rewards and reduce the time window to get them, but only to those whom risk something for it'.
     
    #1 Raap, Jan 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  2. NonFactor

    NonFactor Forest Golem
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    fishing together with salvage and levy destroyed the economy in dfuw

    everything u do afk should reward nothing.
     
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  3. Raap

    Raap Wildtribe Mage

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    A couple of things wrecked it, but these things certainly did a lot of heavy lifting on that front.
     
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  4. The Red King

    The Red King Obsidian Golem
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    Like hit mines with no opposition.

    mines need to be outside the wall
     
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  5. Not_Primetime

    Not_Primetime Infernal
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    It's a sandbox game. Go out and hunt them down and take their shit easy income. Quit expecting BPG to write code for all things you dislike in game. Also if I remember this was address by AV with a more a more aggressive Kraken in UW which is pretty minor compared to your list easy code changes. Are you a Software Engineer, what credentials do you have to determine what is easy to code or not? Given this is built from scratch game engine not the Unity engine.
     
  6. Andrew

    Andrew Eodrin
    Staff Member BPG Representative

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    Kraken changes are on our list as well :).
     
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  7. Raap

    Raap Wildtribe Mage

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    17 years as non-profit game designer gives me a little bit of insight into the general workings of typical game code.
     
  8. NonFactor

    NonFactor Forest Golem
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    indeed. everything in this game should provide conflict
     
  9. Dum Dum

    Dum Dum Celestial
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    I like your ideas
     
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  10. rikilii

    rikilii Celestial

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    I heard that BPG is short-handed. Maybe you should volunteer.
     
  11. Raap

    Raap Wildtribe Mage

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    I offered assistance half a year ago, both off-the-record and via the official channels. They never got back to me on that, and now I'm too busy with other projects, and I am in pre-production of my own game, where our team is currently working on a custom game engine to begin accelerated development by Q3 2020.
     
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  12. rikilii

    rikilii Celestial

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    Cool! Let us know how it goes :D

    Is it an MMO?
     
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  13. Raap

    Raap Wildtribe Mage

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    Hah, no. I do not have the resources for that. But this is not the place to talk about this. :)
     
  14. rikilii

    rikilii Celestial

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    After doing some trawling, I agree that the amount of time you can fish one square should be reduced. I've been sitting in the same spot now for an hour+ and still getting stuff.

    As for the alt issue, perhaps trawling could be made off-limits for free accounts, or the yield reduced a lot.

    But I also see it cutting both ways. With alts, one person could much more effectively engage in piracy.
     
  15. Raap

    Raap Wildtribe Mage

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    Well, I made some suggestions to fix alting, but I guess nerfing 'trawling' into the ground was the easier low-effort solution.

    This is now only worth doing... on alts. Effectively failing to fix the true problem, but making it pointless enough to not be a main character activity.

    :neutral:
     
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  16. Neilk

    Neilk Web Development & System Admin
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    Today's fix is a temporary measure to alleviate the low risk for high rewards that we were seeing over the past few days. I will answer your points
    • Kraken tiles set to minimal loot, despite most of these tiles being annoying to fish in.
    The issue was Kraken tiles were not annoying to trawl in at all. It was possible for people to hug the outside edges and corners of the tiles and they could not be aggro-ed by the kraken so infact it was high reward for low risk in these spawns.
    • Sea towers set to medium loot, despite being only 2 tiles in the game and not remotely risky while the tower is not active.
    Having only two tiles of medium loot will drive trawling to this area instead of 18 medium tiles previously with very low chance to bump into anybody. And increase the risk of PvP
    • Ice dragon tiles set to maximum loot, but there is only one of these in the game, right outside a Blackwater city.
    The ice dragon spawn is spread out over quite a few tiles. There is two rune glyphs really close to this. One is even closer than Mamengruk. We can't base design decisions on in-game politics. That would be a terrible decision to make.
     
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    #16 Neilk, Jan 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  17. rikilii

    rikilii Celestial

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    Indeed, one could fairly argue that in-game politics should, and will, be dictated by design choices like this.

    That said, I think this might be a massive overnerf. Yesterday, it took me ALL DAY (i mean 10 hours) to fish out about 5 tiles around one Kraken spawn. The loot was pretty good, but nothing mind-blowing. Maybe the equivalent of about 5 treasure maps, a lot of useless fish, a decent amount of squid (maybe 10), and a stack of useless copper pigments. At any time during those 10 hours, a single alt on a raft with a pair of daggers could have taken my ship and all my loot. And it doesn't really take long for someone to check a large percentage of the Kraken spawns on the map.


    So, you've basically taken something that was maybe a little too rich, and made it pretty useless for 99% of players. I doubt anyone is going to risk a boat and waste all that time when it's practically guaranteed that someone will find them. On the other hand, if fishing in Tier 1 zones is still worth it, you've basically guaranteed that would-be "pirates" will never find anyone, because instead of being near the handful of Kraken spawns on the map, they could be anywhere.

    In my opinion, you should have made Kraken spawns Tier 2, but reduced the loot there a little bit, and kept the dragon tiles and sea towers at tier 3, for those who like to take risks. But the Kraken spawns shouldn't be the same as everywhere else.
     
    #17 rikilii, Jan 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
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  18. Scrubby Bear

    Scrubby Bear Eodrin
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    The ships should allow you to find ship wrecks and then salvage that. The ship has an old timey diving suit that you get inside of and get lowered to the ship wreck. Then you break apart/salvage the wreck for loot. Could add specific deep water mobs that also require the suit to effectively farm. The whole afk cruising around for loot thing is terrible and should have never been added. The game needs less boring/afk/tedium and more activities in which you are actively playing and having fun.
    --- Post updated ---
    I spent almost my entire time in UW swimming the ocean semi afk with my wireless headset listening for boats. I would take around 4-6 scrapers and 2-4 fishing boats a day average, every single day. On my best day I claimed over 20 total boats. I never even dented the number of people doing it. Just the slow steady decline of active players did. Eventually no one did it anymore, but I doubt I had much of an effect on that. Was more just the game dying and eventually no one needing loot anymore. Fact is that is nearly impossible to make afk activities not worth it by simple merit of them being afk activities and not really requiring any of the players time investment.
     
  19. Yomi Scythetalon

    Yomi Scythetalon Oak Lord
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    People really spendjng ten hours in a game to fish, to get richer, to make gear, that they wont wear....
     
  20. Scrapnotcrap

    Scrapnotcrap Eodrin
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    feels crazy. i havent tried it yet.