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So how about that PVE

Discussion in 'Game Design Discussion' started by laciga, Feb 12, 2019.

  1. laciga

    laciga Goblin Warrior
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    As a recently ( 1 month ago ) returned player due to the freemium model ( i like it a lot and already bought a hefty supporter pack to show my appreciation, I would like to open up a book about PVE.


    For me, day to day enjoyment of an MMO all has to do with group content.

    With our clan we try to always go do something toghether, wether it be farming, or pvp we like to play toghether, its an MMo afterall.

    Unfortunatly as it has been for most of the lifespan of darkfalln

    SOLO Farming is still the best. ( correct mob + strategy = 100K+ per hour, hell even 200k/hour when lucky at guardians. )

    Even when we put toghether a group of 4ppl and end up killing 2 champions in one hour, our time would still be better spent by sitting solo at a fire giant spawn.
    Even when we 2 man multiple demons, our time would be better spent solo.

    I think we can all agree, wihtout sarcasm that when your best strat in an MMO is to grind solo, then something is wrong with the current setup.

    To add insult to injury, with the previously available spawn scaling it is clear that there are mechanics in game that would allow for better group content. Even worse, when seeing the banksize+nr of achievement of alliance members, its clear that they were able to take advantage of the spawn scaling mechanics, and when i hear them talking about it, it even seems like they were great fun.

    eg, suppose you want to farm some Q3 cinder, it would seems that having a mass spawn , ( like the one for the ruby champion ) would be very challenging, great fun and worthwile mats wise for a bigger party, 4-5. It would also be an instant hotspot.

    My suggestion would be, bring back spawn scaling.

    But my real question would be why did it get removed in the first place.
     
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  2. Volfen

    Volfen Infernal
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    Bringing extra people still resulted in a net loss with spawn scaling in terms of farm. The only upside was (as it is now) that you had someone else with you if you got jumped by 2 people. It also had the issue of making every single spawn in the game good to solo if it had as much as 1 good mob in it, resulting in less PVP since there was an overabundance of safe decent/good farming spots.

    The other downside to spawn scaling was that it took 3-4 spawns to max them out depending on the mob, which in a way is good for PVP since you have a reason to stay in one location, but as I said before with pretty much everything in the game scaling there were just too many good locations so this didn't actually make PVP happen, while simultaneously meaning that if your play sessions are sporadic and smaller in length, you'd get kind of screwed (for example, if you're doing some work/studying, and logging in at a spawn to farm for 10-15 minutes for a break then logging back out).

    Additionally, since deactivating the spawn (which, as always, is triggered by leaving the spawn radius for 2 minutes) would reset scaling, it also meant you couldn't cycle mob spawns unless they die incredibly fast and are very close to each other.

    Edit: That's not to say I disagree with your point that we need better PVE content for groups. Right now bringing more than 2 people to anything outside champions is overkill, and 2 people is already overkill for 99% of the game's content. I disagree with champions being bad though; they are at least good enough to be worth doing in groups of 3 or even 4, specially since they're the only source of 120 stat potions in the game.

    Also, I may not have been too clear about this, but the only way scaled spawns were challenging was by soloing them.
     
    #2 Volfen, Feb 12, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  3. laciga

    laciga Goblin Warrior
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    Ok that makes it a bit clearer tough why spawn scaling is far from the solution. Maybe it would not be more worth it, but for me its very important if i want to motivate ppl into the game, that we can always have group content up easily. I was hoping spawn scaling could atleast provide a challenge this way.

    Right now we, ( and i bet most other clans with non-completed characters ) literally have people that dont sign on in the discord/teamspeak at certain hours because they want to get some grinding done, and best money/hour or mats/hour is done solo. So they get out of coms, put on some music/video on the second screen and grind a couple of hours.

    This is fail as an MMO.

    Edit : would you not agree it was better with then without them ? What is gained by losing them ? Except for maybe not make everything scale.
     
    #3 laciga, Feb 12, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  4. Volfen

    Volfen Infernal
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    Limiting crazy scaling to some spawns could be a lot better. IMO the solution that I've always defended was to pick specific spawns and just make those not viable to solo while still making them at least comparable to solo farming in terms of efficiency, so you get both something to do as a group and a few hotspots. Realistically, they'd have to be a lot better than that since being hotspots means risk, specially if the spawn is challenging, and that risk isn't attractive without additional reward to make up for it.

    Maybe part of the solution is to buff champions by adding more good side loot to them (for example, Fenris currently drops Q5 claw and teeth, and Hellfire drops Q5 cinder, albeit not reliably).
     
  5. laciga

    laciga Goblin Warrior
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    any dev want to weigh in on this ?

    It seems like something that would be quite easy to achieve without coding since the neccesary mechanics are already ingame. Just some configuration required.
     
  6. WithoutShame

    WithoutShame Spellgazer
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    It's almost like nerfing the PvE, and then making new players compete with older players who had it way easier, isn't the best idea.
     
  7. Scrapnotcrap

    Scrapnotcrap Obsidian Golem
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    We just need like 2-3 spawn with unlimited scaling and probably random useful mob that spawn. That means, no fucking gray ork in the rotation.
    --- Post updated ---
    Well, i disagree. Having fewer good spawn is better since it promotes more organic pvp.

    The problem now is, you actually need to gear-up to win.

    This game has now become such a gear-based game unlike DFO that it's just insanely unfair when you don't have the bag to compete. The difference between full-plate destroyer and infernal destroyer is insanely high. This is also why we want combat reverted.

    The only time you should look unique and expect to win is when you chose to spend money on cosmetic items.
     
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  8. Fenrir Frauki

    Fenrir Frauki Deadeye
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    Added safety net = less gold per hour.

    Working as intended.
     
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  9. Sero

    Sero Evil Eye
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    Its really hard to correctly design group content in this game. The way mobs work, leash points, AI. They're just damage sponges with aimbots that you can trick into missing.

    The only thing I can think of is having a mob with insane regen that requires consistent DPS from multiple sources. But then: It would have to be fucking massive, and slow, because when the AI starts going insane in this game, it gets cancerous to hit.
     
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  10. Volfen

    Volfen Infernal
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    Shadow knights are a good example IMO. They go invulnerable and heal if they can't path to you, and their bleeds make them pretty dangerous. Add beacon to that and it'd be a nightmare.
     
  11. Sero

    Sero Evil Eye
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    Mmmmm.... I guess. But they can be pretty dumb sometimes. They're a difficult mob to solo, definitely best done duo, but that's all they're really good for. Making a tanky mob like a shadowknight would just result in the samething, 1 heal, 1 dps: rinse and repeat.
     
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  12. Volfen

    Volfen Infernal
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    Yeah, with them being melee only it'd either be impossible to farm or super dull anyway, with nothing inbetween. They are an example of a strong mechanic for dealing with leash abuse though (even if they bug sometimes due to pathing issues and it's annoying).

    Did you ever try farming the elfwraith spawn in cairn during beta? (the one with like 15 ghosts/shades/wraiths). Now give them long a range instacast beacon and make them immune to water/lightning so they don't damage each other. And then make that spawn the only reasonably fast way to farm something desirable, like the mage equivalent of infernal.

    Key things imo:
    • There has to be a bunch of mobs and they have to have very aggressive behavior (beacon or long range aggro and not prone to deaggroing easily) so you can't single one out. If it's just one big monster then it's always going to be easy to either outsmart it or outheal it, and if you can easily pull one away from the spawn then you can just solo them (unless they have insane regeneration or cairn giant spaz mentality).
    • They need to not damage each other or themselves.
    • Give them a lot of ranged dps, so you can't just stand still bolting them.
    • The spawn needs to drop something inherently valuable that's needed often enough that someone HAS to farm it.
    Of course there's also the alternative of giving mobs stupid amounts of regeneration so that you basically can't kill them without X amount of people. That's effective, but not enough to make the whole thing engaging by itself.
     
  13. laciga

    laciga Goblin Warrior
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    To be honest id be up for the regen thing, put a hard minumum on amount of players needed.

    Asided from that i see really no point in why not having a couple of key spawns scale so they are worth it. Hell turn it into a mechanic where you need some kind of item ( bait or something ) to put a spawn in scaling mode.
     
  14. Sero

    Sero Evil Eye
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    Also:

    I won't lie. I had a lot of fun with New Dawns system of scaling, simply because the difficulty and scale that farming was at.

    The problem with it, is it was easily exploitable by alts, and it just created the most absurd faucets of resources. Now maybe the amount of resources in circulation wouldn't have mattered with a proper population, and maybe I enjoyed it because I was grinding a character while I was doing it and felt like I was getting some serious progression in while we all zerged down a mob spawn with our newbie ass characters; but, the difficulty and scaling of the mob spawns required you to farm in a group.
     
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    #14 Sero, Feb 16, 2019 at 11:09 PM
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019 at 11:36 PM