BPG, I had a lot of hope for this game and was a super fanboi but it is clear you have absolutely no idea what type of game you are working on based on the topics in the design discussion forum. As a background I played dfo since day one, my original forum account was dated back to 2002. In dfo and dfuw I was very much pvp oriented and had the attitude the game was all about pvp and had the very hardcore mentality. This go around I brought several new players with me and met lots of new players along the way as I chose to do the farming and crafting life. Everyone I brought to the game and the new players I put on my friends list all quit. There are huge lists and reasons on the forums why people think everyone left and while many of those things are issues that could be improved on they are not the core reason why people quit. The harsh reality is they quit because of our beloved PvP. -DF is unique that it brought mmo and fps players together into one game. Both type or players have very unique needs from a game. -mmo players are used to leveling and character progression. They want something to work towards wether it's their character, crafting, a house, etc. -the fps type player is focused on and constantly searching for pvp and would prefer to have it instantly Without a proper alignment system to discourage most random PKing the wolves ate all the sheep and now those wolves are starving. -The character grind is not bad, it's the fact that people got killed over and over while trying to grind. -The gear grind isn't that bad, it's that people got killed over and over while trying to farm to get their gear -Housing turned into another grind that people died over and over while trying to harvest and get. The vast majority of players do not want pvp anywhere, anytime. The players who do want pvp everywhere all the time tend to be the better players and even they have their own class system. Most of the top players claim they want fair fights and tell everyone to git gud or go home... but I'm going to let you in on the secret. The vast majority are completely full of shit and are only happy when winning fights. It's not about being fair it's about them being able to win. Most of them won't go out solo, they avoid players their same caliber, and mostly prey on hitting people at mob spawns. It's human nature. BPG, stop listening to the existing players... it's the players who left that hold the key to having a population in this game. Use your own critical thinking skills to asses what happened, stop listening to the existing community. Some ideas- -make a harsh alignment system that all but removes meaningless PKing (i.e. Stat loss/skilll loss like uo) -make pvp centered around a faction or guild war and not about killing random people at mob spawns -give the people who want instant pvp an arena with tons of features I have a lot more thoughts and ideas but I am reluctant to waste the time on deaf ears. If you want some real insight from a vet who has played both sides of the game and has lots of insight from players who quit hit me up with a pm and we can talk. You guys are heading down the path of making an arena game but the thing is... agon isn't an arena. This path you are heading down is futile, but gl.