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The only post I'll ever make - Retention

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sindal, Jul 22, 2017.

?

Want to retain new players?

  1. Yes, I want new players to enjoy the game

    69 vote(s)
    69.7%
  2. No, I want my ultra hardcore game

    30 vote(s)
    30.3%
  1. Sethisto

    Sethisto Goblin Shaman

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    I feel like the majority of the numbers up there are complete bullshit.

    There are good points in casualfying the game some. I've since joined all my friends I started with in quitting land, but I dream of a day when this gets a relaunch (again) on steam for hopefully a second chance since it was really fun while it lasted.

    I don't agree that the entire middle should be pvp-free, but a portion of it very well could be. Around newbie cities and maybe a dungeon or two going trammel style would give people at least medium level junk to farm.

    But really, you completely missed the point up there in general. The game is just boring to grind in for a lot of people. It's slow, buggy feeling, and boring. Dropping abilities to 10 and removing pvp isn't going to make that anymore fun. Even making skillups faster isn't going to make it fun to level them. They really just need better dungeons with bosses, more treasure chests, and a less "his room is x, this room is y, this room is stronger x" feel, quest lines, something to get people going. If this was Skyrim with DF's combat and open loot PVP it would probably be perfect for keeping everyone around. I've grinded shit for years, but your average player just doesn't want to sit at a camp anymore, even if they are gaining sword skill at a 25x rate. add some dungeon crawling, add some rare world spawns, add some city invasions, add some anything other than sitting at a camp to level.

    The people I joined with that quit due to pvp didn't quit from open world regular pvp. They quit because of buggy shit in npc cities. People stealing their mounts because timers bugged, or dying because someone zerged them down and had their friend loot the corpse at crafting stations. Everyone else quit because of the grind, how ugly the game is, and how clunky it feels. Not because they got pk'd.

    If this does get a steam-re-re-re-release, I really hope they come out swingin with something actually engaging on the PVE front. Very few in 2017 are going to sit at a camp for 3 hours. We did that in everquest a decade ago, it's time to evolve.

    Fix that, fix travel times to not suck (ive already ranted about that plenty here), and hell I'd even argue getting rid of bunny hopping as it's a really random mechanic unless you use scripts. Even the vets i played with were shouting WTF'S in chat when someone would hop away at the speed of light and take 0 damage. No one knows how to consistently not take damage from it, and in the game's current state you have no choice but to pray to rngesus that you land the one that doesn't take 25% off a hop.
     
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  2. Madmatt

    Madmatt Deadeye
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    I hate bhop but almost everyone that does it knows how to not take dmg. bhop at an uphill incline even if its a tiny one.
     
  3. Scrapnotcrap

    Scrapnotcrap Eodrin
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    Was? You must be trolling. DF is the best mmo ever!!

    No, DF is the best game ever!!
     
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  4. Sethisto

    Sethisto Goblin Shaman

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    Sure, but people do it on flat and down too. Half of TS was bitching about some guy who was apparently famous for scripts taking no damage from bhopping down a hill.

    On flat it seems completely random. I bgone hopped hundreds of times between the workbench and bank in our clan city, and it was never predictable how much damage I would take. Sometimes a hop would chunk off 25% a bounce, while others I took almost nothing. There were a million theories on how to avoid the damage, but even in the biggest guild on the server, i never saw someone consistently do any of it. It was always a "oh hey I didn't take damage from that one!" which is insane for a pvp game.

    And then you have storm blast. Everyone I ever talked to about mastering stormblast said it was "ping based". My ping fluctuated from 60 to 100 throughout the day. It was never consistent. This is the sort of thing devs need to find a better alternative to. It should never be "you can jump REALLY far if you have 15 ping consistently but you might end up going nowhere if you don't hopefully aim in the correct frame with 60-100 ping!". Just make it 2 abilities, one for up, one for arc. Remove ping from the equation.
     
    #24 Sethisto, Jul 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  5. kilrath81

    kilrath81 Black Knight
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    Love this post, BPG needs to read it, Then talk about it, Then go home and read it before bed. After they dream about it and wake up thinking about it for a month hopefully it will then sink in. One of the best gear issue related posts i've read yet.
     
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  6. kompletist

    kompletist Goblin Warrior
    Tester

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    Not even bothering to read the responses because I'm sure you are getting flamed off of planet earth by the vets but I agree 100% with all of your ideas. I would re-sub for that Darkfall. Less of a time commitment, more fun, some casual elements....love it.

    I've played all the DF's so I kind of know what I'm signing up for but your ideas about the weapons, mainland safety, less abilities, free upgrades, faster leveling just sound like so much fun.

    Great post, thanks for taking the time.
     
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  7. Dunk Slammington

    Dunk Slammington Goblin Warlord

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    wtl;dr
    way too long; didn't read
     
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  8. Fishsauce

    Fishsauce Goblin Shaman

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    Problem is the current mindset of the devs they have now tend to make changes in favor of the vets or the no lifers. They will keep making changes to please the vets before even trying to do something for new players or casuals. Unless they start hring more devs with a mindset gear toward new players, you won't see any big changes in the department anytime soon.
     
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  9. Zeiken

    Zeiken Undead Dwarf

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    This. +100000. Playing albion until this game gets a massive facelift.
     
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  10. WyLd_SyDe

    WyLd_SyDe Spellgazer
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    I 1000% disagree with ops post that we need to fundamentally change the game in order to survive. If that's the case what's the point? Let this game die and make a new game with whatever if any profit and more importantly knowledge that was gained from this version.

    I do agree with wes's post however. He's a skilled and knowledgeable player and ffs I've been fighting the guy for as long as i can remember. I respect his opinion as someone who plays with and sees the plight of newer players.

    Gear being more easily attainable is a good compromise. As it is right now dying hurts. Mines have been nerfed, rare ore availibility in general has been nerfed, gold and mat drops have been lowered all with the intention of avoiding inflation, which let's face it, is inevitable anyway and maybe not even a bad thing. Some players have access to spawns and techniques that can make 50k an hour easily, most don't. This creates the gear gap, and eventually, skill gap that we see as these players can instead focus on dueling and pvping to a greater extent than your average player.

    My thought is to place more value on enchanting mats instead and make gear itself easy to attain. Enchants provide marginal, yet tangible benefit, without being completely fight winning. Whereas full plate vs scale and r50 vs r40 is.

    Whatever the case may be you can throw lulzy numbers around all you want op, but I hope to God they don't take your "advice". Too many key binds? Kill me now fellas
     
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  11. IsilithTehroth

    IsilithTehroth Undead Dwarf
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    The game doesn't need to have any hardcore element like full loot removed.

    I also think many spells adds to the game, but a skill cap is needed.
    The grind could be a little easier, but its about average with most mmos.
    The game needs non pvp elements, like a card game and farming for those to do after they get killed to let of steam.
    A centralized tradehouse would be nice, but it removes the community aspect of the game like what happened in Runescape/OSRS.
    A graphics update is sorely needed.
    If someone wants to risk 10 times what another player is, why shouldnt they have an advantage? Basically renders top level gear useless.
     
  12. MWTaylor

    MWTaylor Community Manager
    Staff Member BPG Representative Game Designer

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    There has been a lot of talk about the time investment and tedium that things take to acquire and do. If that time/tedium could be greatly reduced, while keeping in tact risk vs reward, is that part of the solution in your mind?
     
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  13. Foomanchu

    Foomanchu Goblin Warlord

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    DFUW safe zones were quite small and only encompassed the noobiest of mobs (goblins, skeletons, zombies, etc)
    and I dare say newbs lasted much longer in UW.. if it included some small medium mob spawns and a pretty crappy high end mob spawn (with adjusted loot) it might have been a better feature for player retention
     
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  14. DarkGhost25

    DarkGhost25 Black Knight
    Contributor Hero

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    Absolutely! Here are some issues I see:

    1. NPCs are mostly useless after a certain point
    2. Items vendor for very poor sums, making trading a forced activity and resulting in frustrated hoarders
    3. Forgetting crafting tools is very annoying
    4. No chance to ever have 100% success rate when crafting
    5. Meditation points are way too time consuming to get
    6. Low rank destroyer gear is too weak
    7. Low rank staves are too strong, creates gear requirement disparity
    8. Destroyers rely on rare ores which come from golems they can't farm efficiently
    9. Gathering needs more uncommon and rare drops, it feels like a chore for those that need to do it
    10. Constant buffing results in staves breaking quickly even when not using attack magic
    11. Being encumbered is VERY annoying and happens too often when farming, crafting, gathering, and pvping. This is a major problem, people don't have time to trudge around slowly from place to place, remove this mechanic altogether and impose weight limits.
    12. Monsters drop too much junk that fills your weight capacity quickly and forces you to trash regularly or leave a giant mess of graves.
    13. Some things take too long to craft, such as houses which take literally 12 hours to craft with max maintenance.
    14. Jewelry breaks too quickly, especially necklaces
    15. Having to return to town constantly to buy new skills after unlocking them is a major time killer

    That's just things off the top of my head, gtg.
     
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  15. kompletist

    kompletist Goblin Warrior
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    He's implying the game is already dying and the changes he's suggesting do essentially make it a new game one which he contends is more marketable and appealing. When you ask what the point is, it's just what you're saying. Let it die is a bit harsh as he's suggesting there are changes that can be implemented to improve player retention. I was going to say new player retention there but all the people I played DF with were vets and probably 25 of the 30 I played with have since left for greener pastures.

    As per the key bindings, it's not that I feel it's too much to handle but it's always felt so unintentionally sloppy. I expect to use 50 keys when playing Starcraft but not an FPS. Just doesn't feel right, never has. It's an FPS game after all right? I get just as much enjoyment landing a flick headshot in CS as I do winning a fight in DF. The major difference is I can execute the play in CS with a handful of keys and mouse precision.

    I'll excuse myself from the forums now. Probably shouldn't be posting if I'm not currently subbed. Just thought it appropriate in this thread as I'm still a fan of the franchise and changes like this sound appealing to me.

    Cheers, GL HF all.
     
  16. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
    Staff Member Developer Team Lead

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    This is a confusing request since being weighted down is the weight limit. It was just never intended to fully stop you from moving.
     
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  17. Cagori Rei

    Cagori Rei Wildtribe Mage
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    I'm one of those baddies that lose more gear then gain it in pvp
    Myself, i think gear should always be easy to get, and characters should be easy to lvl.
    Make the last 10% of a character be harder grind, make the TOP gear a harder grind, but both those only a minor influence (gives those who do want to grind have something to work for).
    I have been saying this since DFUW however, i never understood why people complained about full banks and asked for a gear grind etc
    My full bank made me regear after a lost fight to jump in there again! dumbest thing av did in DFUW was the "aged" stuff.

    What we do need is stuff for people to do besides gear and character grinding!
    traderoutes, sea/landtowers, GM spawned mob events, ... stuff that brings PVP but is fun even for the new people to jump into.
    Take an example from Asherons call... monthly updates with new content, quests, etc, even with a low dev team at the end!
    Kept people playing!
     
  18. Super Star

    Super Star Oak Lord
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    There is nothing wrong with the mechanic itself, just some simple changes need to occur in order to make certain aspects of it a lot more tolerable.

    Heads - Should weigh 0. I dont care for the attempt at realism, all it does is punish someone for ganking.

    Farming - Weight limits on some raw resources could be reduced slightly, but overall this mechanic is fine for gathering

    Crafting - I dont see an issue with being over-encumbered with a bunch of stuff to craft.

    PvP - This one is also fine, weight limits are there for obvious reasons.

    The following are the only ones i could see something being done which wouldnt affect anything negatively.

    PVE'ing - Firstly, either mob dropped gear shouldnt drop at all, or there should only be a low chance to get a rare rolled piece from the dropped tiers, immaculate and w/e the other high one is. All the other tiers of mobbed dropped gear/weapons are completely useless, sell for nothing, make scroaching even easier and just force you either to waste time looting/deleting it or leaving it on the body and letting a bunch of graves pile up. It also takes away from anyone ever wanting to buy lower end gear from crafters

    Secondly, resources dropped from monster should come in a different form with a significantly lower weight. Would it be great to be able to loot some resources while farming monsters? Of course, except in their current form, nobody is ever going to loot any raw resources from a monster, its way to inefficient. However if you changed mob dropped resources to drop with a lower weight that you could then take and process them into normal resources (refine in bulk), this would allow people to actually loot them. It would allow lower end players to get gear for sets without having to do it through harvesting. It also opens up the avenue to be able to use this same concept on other things. For example, maybe when killing undead dwarves they have a chance to drop selentine scraps, and with 10 you can process it into 1 selentine ingot. Now a player who is not only new or not that great at pvp and is 100% unable to contest a selentine golem, can now farm a lesser mob, and still get selentine in the process. Even though the rare mat would be farmed at a lower drop rate than of course the primary source, you still get something, and that something is better than the current nothing.
     
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  19. Darkwulf

    Darkwulf Gravelord

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    If this was all I had to do them MAYBE it would be acceptable. First casuals don't get 3 hours every day. Maybe 3 hours 2-4 days a week depending on work schedules.

    The reason I unsubbed for the time being is because I am a casual player and literally ALL I do is try to get gold, then I decide if I want to blow my 6k a day on meditation points or maybe buy some gear, or maybe craft some gear, or maybe try to find some enchanting mats.

    The amount of time I spend making gear bags is dumb. I don't even make good gear bags. plate scale, r40 bow, sword, and a NPC bought staff. Then I put some Q1 enchants on those.

    Not to mention about 50% of the time when I am doing the daily dungeon I get jumped while low and die. I don't mind dying but I am just pointing out casuals only take the 6k back to the bank half the time. So a good portion of the week I have no meditation points and progress has stopped, while poop sockers continue to increase the power gap.

    So when I sit down at the PC I have to decide. Do I want to log in to darkfall and work for another 3 hours grinding for a possible reward? Or do I want to log into to something fun?

    That's where I am at currently.

    I beta new dawn from time to time and I really like how easy it is to get stuff. Ore/wood is easier to get, masteries and all skills are on meditation. Redundant skills have been removed. 50 weapon skill (not mastery) is 80% of the damage, 1-100 mastery only nets 20% more damage. Meditation points are super easy to get for blue players, gold is easy to get, rares are easy to get. The only reason I feel like I am wasting time their is because of the end of beta wipe. Everything is easier for casuals.

    BPG needs to take a close look at what they have done with pve and rare drops in this game. Making things harder to get is a huge step backwards.
     
  20. Pink Taco

    Pink Taco Black Knight
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    I agreed with your statements up until content. Content in this re-launch would be a special case that would show the old Darkfall players who refuse to return to the same exact game they quit over no content patches... from returning 8 years later to still no content patches.

    If content patches were put in and gave the old community new things to do, then alot of my clan I can vouch for would indeed return... and in turn their friends/family etc... It would give them new found faith with the company that is now in charge, and show them that investing their time and money will not end in a repeat of some Greek company just going silent for years and absorbing their money.

    I stopped reading after that one invalid point, sorry.
     
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