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The Root of the Problem

Discussion in 'Game Design Discussion' started by ijharb, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. ijharb

    ijharb Chosen of Khamset
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    The jist of it is that games, Quake in this example, with a high skill ceiling and high skill floor don't appeal to modern day gamers. People want to be able to jump into a game and be able to compete. Darkfall has that same feeling. I love that in these games but most people today don't want to have to grind endlessly with no short term payoff to get better at games.
     
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  2. Eaos

    Eaos Goblin Warrior
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    Well screw those people
     
  3. hirve

    hirve Goblin Warlord

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    dota2/lol/overwatch/etc have massively more skilled players than df even though "they have such low skill ceilings"

    df has a high skill ceiling but it's also not fun and nobody plays so there's no competition and no good players

    "with a high skill ceiling and high skill floor"

    this is a euphemism for shitty game

    "don't appeal to modern day gamers"

    and this is an excuse ppl use to blame others for their game being too shitty

    "People want to be able to jump into a game and be able to compete"

    the only reason you can't compete in a low skilled game like df is because you have to grind for months before you have a usable char

    "grind endlessly with no short term payoff to get better at games"

    normally people get paid to do this



    want more players? stop crying about skill ceilings and modern gamers and improve the game. btw you will have to compromise. the last successful game that had bunnyhopping as a core mechanic was probably q3, which is older than most people on this forum. killing that would be a good start (but oh god here come the tears)
     
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  4. breakqop

    breakqop Crypt Guard

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    just some thoughts...

    darkfall doesn't need to the biggest game, it just needs a healthy playerbase (which it is obviously far from, currently)

    competitive ssbm (super smash bros melee) is doing better than ever, and it has a ridiculously high skill ceiling. interestingly enough, thorin brought up this same topic in an interview with former quakeworld pro kovaak and the first thing he brought up was ssbm:


    darkfall is unique in that the combat scales beautifully*, and it really softens the unforgiving skill gap between casual players and vets in a nice, organic-feeling way. a 1v1, 2v2, or 3v3 can be just as intense and exciting as a 50v50, 100v100, or 500v500

    *aside from some silly things like field AoEs, blinds etc, but that's for another thread...
     
  5. Mycke

    Mycke Obsidian Golem

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    Its not the skill ceiling that is the problem, its that there is so little protecting those still learning from those who have learned, noobs arent seen as fellow future wolves, just current sheep, not people to be nurtured and taught until competent, but people to be face rolled until they quit.
     
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  6. RootedOak

    RootedOak Oak Lord
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    The way AV designed the game world, all the newbie areas are in the center of all the high end areas. So the newbs are integrated directly into the shit.
     
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  7. Kilset

    Kilset Black Knight
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    I can tell you're a straight cunt off the first sentence. Several if not dozens of the top players in df are top 100 overwatch players. A few in dune rats were top 5. A player out of my clan was top 50, the list goes on and several dozens were GM players. DF has always suffered from a lack of content and things to do besides bang out noobs at goblin spawns. lack of population has little to do with the skill ceiling or mechanics. Also, DF isn't an easy game, not by a long shot. Cunt.



    P.S: Overwatch does have a low skill ceiling seeing that there are top players who have virtually zero aiming skills.
     
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    #7 Kilset, Jul 14, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
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  8. WyLd_SyDe

    WyLd_SyDe Spellgazer
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    Someone's salty af, who molested you ig? Was it Jonah? You know you wanted it
    --- Post updated ---
    Not to mention in those games you play only against people of the same skill as you outside of smurfs. You'll notice a trend among any top players in any game, they are good at most other games too :tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:
     
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  9. Aristos Giannes

    Aristos Giannes Cairn Giant
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    This is potentially one of the most autistic things i've ever read on these forums....and that's saying a lot.

    A game doesn't have to appeal to casuals to be considered a 'good' game. It just has to do that to be popular.
     
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  10. ijharb

    ijharb Chosen of Khamset
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    THe skill ceiling isnt the issue. Its the high point of entry that turns people off. low skill floor high skill ceiling is what you want in a game. It attracts noobs and leaves room for continuous improvement for along time.
    --- Post updated ---
    Anyways I just thought the topic was interesting and applied to DF on some level. I'm not attacking anyone or trying to dumb down the game.
     
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  11. Check Mate

    Check Mate Stormgraive

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    Dunno what's worse--

    bitter 30 year old men ranting about how video games aren't what they used to be and how bad games and gamers are these days.

    Or bitter 50 year old men ranting about the latest generation being entitled special snowflakes and participation trophies.
     
  12. Scrapnotcrap

    Scrapnotcrap Eodrin
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    I
    SSBM has variety: something that quake and DF don`t have.

    The easiest character you can pick-up to compete with is Ganondorf. I've beaten a pro jap players with ganondorf: the type who would usually 4-0 me.

    That`s the difference between most fps games and fighting game: variety based on the difficulty to control a character.

    If the whole world was forced to play with fox or falco only, SSBM would be dead by now

    ...

    It's basically the same with overwatch, there's variety. I find diva to be the easiest character to play with, but i find her to be hella boring so i just pick tracer or the granny.
    --- Post updated ---
    I disagree, a game does not have to be popular to be considered good, The problem with DF for example, the world is too big to content the player base we currently have. We've been saying that the world is too big. The portal networks are not enough. We either need more portals or the world has to become smaller.

    I still think DF UW had the bright idea to make the world become smaller.
     
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  13. Super Star

    Super Star Oak Lord
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    Or we need more "stuff" to attract more players to fill the current world we have, not settle for what we have and adjust accordingly.
     
  14. breakqop

    breakqop Crypt Guard

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    i call bullshit. got any names of the "pro" japanese players that you've beaten? is this in friendlies/casual play? tournament sets? and 4-0? since when did the japanese scene start doing bo7?

    ganon is pure combo food for decent players, and has very little upset potential, especially so in a game that has arguably the largest skill gap for any competitive game that exists (just look at how ridiculously consistent the 5 gods of melee have been throughout the years)

    edit: also, if you're good enough to '4-0' pro japanese players, you should be able to beat me. hit me up and we can play some games on netplay
     
  15. ijharb

    ijharb Chosen of Khamset
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    Thanks for the input.
     
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  16. ThiefGarrett

    ThiefGarrett Earth Elemental
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    I think the root of your problem is that you are comparing this game to an arena death match. This isn't an arena game where you are pitted against players of similar skill on equal footing.

    The high skill ceiling isn't an issue, it's a goal for people to reach for. The issues is keeping the new players happy while they get better. Keeping the vets busy in between the fighting. Does that mean we can't lower the skill floor a bit? Making it a bit easier to get into combat? Not at all. Nothing wrong with that, but for the love of god STOP comparing this to quake. It just can't be done.
     
  17. ijharb

    ijharb Chosen of Khamset
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    If you can't draw the comparison that's fine. but there obviously is one to be made. And like I've already said in this thread the skill floor is the issue. not the ceiling.
     
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  18. clyde frog

    clyde frog Skeleton Archer
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    Holy cow. Complete evisceration. RIP ROA fanboys.
     
  19. hirve

    hirve Goblin Warlord

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    multiplayer games have to have players to be considered good

    more importantly games that cost money to operate have to have players to be considered online

    this game has < 1k actives. $10k/month barely covers the salary of a junior programmer
     
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  20. mrW

    mrW Black Knight
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    A game has to be sustainable first. It doesn't matter how 'good' or 'bad' gameplay is of an unsustainable game, as the end result is the same.
     
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