Edited Jan 14. Some needed clarification has been added as my stance on this controversial topic has changed. Thanks to the many arguments and useful point-counter point debates that have occurred but the issues still remain unsolved. So we all know the heated argument this topic always devolves into. Lets cut to the core of this as best we can. I do apologize for the length but this is not a simple topic and this will be my last real attempt to cover this topic. Please read the sections that you are doubting or wondering about. Please read Sections 8 & 10. Removing is not required to fix. The sections to this thread are the following. Section 1: Early Full Admittance of skill and it's positive roll in darkfall Section 2: Examples of Harassment Section 3: How removing B-Hop would help prevent harassment and improve the game for many. Section 4: Examples of Grief Section 5: Examples of how removing b-Hop would prevent Grief and improve the game for many. Section 6: Examples of Asset Damage Section 7: Asset Damage Solution (Credit Dixie Normus) Section 8: Why this nerf for B-Hop isn't the right path if we can solve the core issues Section 9: To those who claim we need to learn to aim Section 10: My view on how tactical re-positioning in combat won't die. Section 11: Other positive changes Section 1: Early Full Admittance of skill and it's positive roll in darkfall The mechanic itself allows re-positioning during combat and the ability for solo players to survive against larger groups of players which can be used to amazing effect as we all know. Done right a small group can out perform a much larger group. Entering into a fight, engaging, slaughter, supporting allies and breaking off or dominating. The fights themselves are thrilling and skill is certainly present to use the environment and respond properly to the dynamic situation that develops in the crazy battles that we all love. Not to mention how it allows solo players to survive many situations they would not without it. It's great in PvE as well as PvP with many uses offensive and defensively. I myself enjoy the proper usage of B-Hop greatly during my time playing darkfall. The problems arise from a) Harassment b) Grief and/or Griefing and they need to be fully addressed. Otherwise this system should be nerfed. The sprain mechanic is a good start but it needs refining. The B-Hop mechanic as we all know it was never meant to exist and there will still be methods of re-positioning beyond mounts that would be possible even without B-Hop as it was in the past or present. Read it all and you will know what I mean. Section 2 Examples of Harassment Followed by how removing B-Hop would help prevent this. A) Specifically and repeatedly targeting weaker players at weaker spawns. Easy Loot / Low Risk and Easy Escape. Whether it's a freshly recruited new players out solo or a new player who joined up with any active clan. When they go out to a nearby goblin, troll or other weak/easy spawns near their clan city or in new player regions. Usually easily identified by playing poorly and poorly equipped but there are other signs. These people are targeted by people with more advanced characters/gear and or more familiarity with systems such as B-Hop for easy loot, easy kills for stats or maybe just cause they enjoy others misery. Other than launch day veterans will not be at weak spawns to help. if they are lucky some might be nearby but not close enough usually. Even better players in newer groups will advance more quickly and usually will separate and move around nearby. B) Players coming in with little to no gear just for us to chase. They do get adrenaline from being chased even having small groups chase them is fun for them but this is not entertaining for any active clan. If it happens without being able to effectively kill the harasser it will affect moral and the fun people have when playing the game. Especially groups with less experience, smaller in numbers or simply bad players. If they can't effectively play a game without someone else wasting their time and that's the nice scenario. If not that then full on looting stuff from them, causing frustration and ruining/wasting however much time/effort they put in to get X. Once a game is not fun. People will not play. It will always be this simple. C) Some will show up nearly naked to tap a clan resource like the mine at almost no risk with minimal regs to B-Hop away. I've seen a guy come back and hit the empty mine just to taunt and get people to chase lol. Ultra Low Risk with Good Reward with high escape odds. Even if people are on and chase as soon as the Raider/Harrasser hears buffing, mounts or enough people inc etc they run if they are not willing to fight or if they are not prepared to fight. Some taunt just to be chased. D) Constant fight resetting or fights lasting far too long. A group of relatively equal players both hopping around can end up running out of stats before the fights end. That's if one side doesn't break off stat up and return and rinse repeat until they manage to win or end up losing. Section 3: How removing B-Hop would help prevent harassment and improve the game for many. Though I don't even believe it needs to be fully removed anymore the points are valid and I'm leaving the examples. We all know these situations will always occur even if B-Hop is removed. However the removal of B-Hop would help clans be able to deal with these problems much more effectively. A) If the opponent didn't have B-Hop other blues nearby, clan members or whomever could potentially down his mount before he got too far. Without B-Hop that is huge and even bigger with a possibility of mounts being more limited at some point. B) Other people responding could mount sprint directly at the enemy and close the distance while others are shooting forcing the harasser to dodge and groups could run these harassers down much more effectively. Especially considering mounts are larger targets, slower than a fast moving B-Hop player and have less health than a player early on. C) Even if people originally onsite couldn't kill the player themselves if they killed all his mounts or better mounts were limited other veterans or their groups better players could get onsite through various means such as recall/runestones or just run in with mounts or on foot from nearby and track the harasser down. D) A single small scale engagement should be over within 10 mins tops. Larger or more active groups should have some safety in numbers and be able to chase off harassers and attackers shouldn't feel confident attacking larger groups over and over when severely outnumbered. E) If people wasted less time dealing with harassers/griefers/raiders they could do what they wanted. Maybe a VCP, or they could go farm something and use it or sell it. Maybe have some friendly practice so they don't get rick rolled so hard. It would free up time. Time is precious to people especially free time. Clans known to be more active would have less harassment overall because they wouldn't be easy targets and maybe they could do the things they want to do. People wouldn't waste time chasing if a mounted guy got away and if he did he would have earned it cause it won't be stupid easy. Section 4: Examples of Grief A)The worst are those who patrol starting areas. Advanced characters/gear/player experience is a nightmare for anyone without. When it is all 3 they have no hope. Some try to respond. Frankly I tried at times in RoA but only if close by... Lets face it the chase is annoying as hell these days and responding from any real distance is pointless. If you had a rune marked dead on to the initial incident you'd still have almost no chance of catching the griefer with B-Hop. Section 5: Examples of how removing b-Hop would prevent Grief and improve the game for many Though I don't even believe it needs to be fully removed anymore the points are valid and I'm leaving the examples. Without B-hop even a group of new players with an hour or two of gametime might down a mount. If mounts were limited other vets, better players, blues nearby and god knows could respond because we knew we could get some easy loot off some POS. Our community would be able to take care of itself for once and I doubt safe zones in starter areas would even be needed overall. As long as they could not easily get away I bet our community would clean their house of any trash. Without this... responding to anything beyond point blank is pointless. Some people would mark runes to allies holdings. Some would mark to newer clans they liked. Maybe mark runes to new player areas. If we knew the servers trash was there and couldn't get far I think many would be interested in such easy loot. Section 6: Examples of Asset Damage A) As it is at any time anyone can bring a few battle spikes with a couple regs, a starter staff and slowly rinse repeat burn down anything they want and enjoy being chased as a result. Low odds of catching the guy and he knows anyone/everyone will definitely not ignore him. Even if we catch him he loses almost nothing if anything at all. B) Ship asset damage harassment can be done at any time as it stands to any coastal city. (Brought up by Volfen) Section 7: Asset Damage Solution (Credit Dixie Normus) Limit asset damage functions to clans that are sieging each other during the 24 hour period. Bonus points for preventing allies or randoms from doing asset damage during sieges. Might prevent alt clan sieging. Especially if there was a 1k per person gold cost to recruitment so they couldn't switch clans for nothing but not enough to affect any clan from actively recruiting. (Money should come from clan bank IMO) Section 8: Why this nerf for B-Hop isn't the right path if we can solve the core issues B-Hop is skill. However infinite B-Hop is terrible. Keep the sprain mechanic maybe increase the amount of hops slightly and remove the health drain entirely. Maybe allow stamina drain slightly? Health drain doesn't just hurt the harasser. It hurts the people chasing too and opens them to ambushes in a significantly weaker state than they were when the chase started. Leave the damage to the combat elements we all love. Shady harassment ambushes shouldn't be an effective tactic. Anyone who attempts to keep the distance shouldn't be punished for engaging in a chase. Let the skill remain but don't punish people for chasing and using a "Skill" though I can debate if it is skill. Really if both sides do it right the distance remains the same except for their status bars. All the nerf essentially did was kill the aspects of the skill people loved and will result in roughly the same pre B-Hop distances with reduced status bars for both sides back into the scenario I always wanted. They mount up, we start shooting. They start dodging and if he gets away he does. If the defenders can down the mount they get him with whatever they got. Player skill, numbers etc. Point is it will be over in 10 minutes regardless. Free time is precious people. Harassment isn't fun. If you can't have fun in a game who is going to play? Don't tell me dodging on a mount isn't more skillful that B-Hop regardless of how much you like B-Hop. You need real spacial awareness and need watch for incoming fire and react to the incoming while not being able to stay focused on where you are going despite potentially dying if you get stuck. Most of you just B-Hop when you find the best path and hope they don't hit you. This one hole whack-a-mole isn't entertaining for many folks. Despite your position on it. I'm happy to see the sprain mechanic. The first step in properly addressing an issue is admitting it exits. Section 9: To those who claim we need to learn to aim My vast experiences with this issue since the my earliest darkfall days is usually when I'm not the guy getting attacked/killed initially though in my earliest day I was the one who couldn't handle the situation calling for help. Most of the time especially in RoA when I was active I got a plenty of experience with this. Because I am responding to a calls for help. Reports of asset damage. Reports of downed allies or newbs. I am very unlikely to be aligned perfecting with the harasser / newb killers retreat path. If we are lucky it's somewhat similar path but even then we must B-Hop to keep up and we will lose distance as we attempt to cut him off. We will be losing health. As a fresh player on the scene we are forced into losing health just to prevent distance loss. Our other option is start firing from whatever distance we initially see them at and then at that point they should have most of their health if they can stat worth a damn. They will escape. So we must B-Hop and the less hp he has the better odds of finishing the enemy off as the mechanic is. At that point we are weakened as well. Our best and only chance requires us to sacrifice our health. Which is great for ambushes btw. Great times. Before the sprain mechanic we would have approx 2-5 spells/arrows worth of time to hit this skeet disc at high speed and we are most likely not perfectly aligned so we don't have a easy shot all lined up. This is a terrible scenario even for a veteran who can aim and are familiar with their spells travel times etc. Now at least if we do B-Hop and do just as well they will be forced to mount up and dodge. We can open fire and force them to dodge. While others go directly at them with B-Hop or Mount Sprint or both. Close the distance best they can and they open fire. An active clan will have others coming. The bastards will go down. Right now I just want health drain removed from B-Hop and the sprain mechanic to be more refined. So people can't stop right before it activates and restart B-Hop. Lets be clear not chasing is not on the table for a active clan or a new player oriented group of any kind. Losing gear over and over while being slowly whittled down repeatedly is a bad scenario with the wrong elements. It's horrible for moral, unbelievably frustrating and a complete waste of time for the defenders. Especially people who want to do other things than bounce after whomever did whatever. Not to mention lost resources and the costs of time/effort with this and how it builds over time. There will always be zergs regardless and I would like mounts to get some love so solos have an easier time without B-Hop Section 10: My view on how tactical re-positioning in combat won't die even if we heavy nerf B-Hop My wet dream is these movement spell effects on self are removed entirely. I want these spells to still affect other players. BPG has already refined most of the harassment issues with small damage ticks etc. Lets not pretend we wouldn't still use begone/stormblast on allies to send allies either A) into enemy cities for attacking or scouting or B) into enemy lines. So getting that Destroyer into their mage group would rely on teamwork and a new style of aim. Come hither would be the retrieval method naturally. Maybe increase the range abit? I hear it's getting a nerf so people won't be endlessly using come hither which will be good. This game needs to evolve beyond it's stale state. We need to fix broken mechanics and start opening ourselves to a wider market. If people can't have fun they won't play. Section 11: Other Positive Changes Maybe you could add a status effect when we jump so come hither becomes more effective. If you time it right you can pull buddies out of the fire or pull an enemy to their death. Though I believe actively blocking with melee or a shield should prevent come hither from working on you effectively at least from the front. B-Spikes should work the same with the sprain mechanic still ingame but they should do more damage to a player. Destroyers would still have a method to get out of WoF but can't hop forever and would have to take a decent damage hit to escape being pummeled. Battle Spikes don't go far and you don't throw that many that fast. I don't know why anyone would want to use them for anything else pvp related. Mounts need to be limited properly. I don't think weight should be the method though. It screws with farming materials and gathering etc. Personal Note: I've loved darkfall ever since I started. This game has ruined MMOs in general for me. I don't like New Dawns path. I've supported RoA far more vocally than most and always have tried my best. Though it may be lacking compared to the best of someone better. There always is someone better I'll continue to support the game but I would play immediately if B-Hop was gone. I will watch and wait. I hope BPG can solve the problems or at least realize serious decisions need to be made. It's their baby now. Sometimes amputations are the best choice available. Sometimes you need to make hard decisions. I don't envy your position in any way. I'll give it a couple months see how the territory controls and marketplace go. If you can't make the right call I'll only sub my main and keep my house. When my tokens run out near the end of the year and if this game is still dying you won't have my support anymore. I'll just cut off this toxic game and move on as I did before. Without addressing these issues properly any nerf is just a band aid on a bullet wound. The broken mechanic is pure cancer. Some say it's just my opinion it was a significant influence on the death of this game each time. I would argue that and have endlessly. At least until the problems are addressed properly it is cancer. A open gate to scum saving in a mmo. At least we're finally ending the endless bouncy house silliness. At this point I'm just howling in the wind. Mourning my favorite game while it's still breathing. I feel like I'm living in a south park alternative universe. It's almost surreal how I'm constantly told this mechanic is super easy to do but not super easy to escape with. It's a paradox I tell you. I'm done, best of luck. My last attempt and I really hope it wakes some people up.
Of course you won't then you'd have to admit serious flaws in broken mechanics and actually discuss them. The only way this system should be allowed to stay but we need to fix the core problems(I've been slowly convinced it should stay in one form or another) To do that we need to brainstorm. Do you know what that is? We start throwing out anything that might work, others can comment and maybe we can figure out a solution. We need a constructive debate. Which you are not interested in. Please understand BPG will only keep your private lan party running for so long. If the worst elements of this game are not addressed less and less are going to play or going to give them any money. Luckily you are not needed for us to make potential progress or for this game to succeed. PS: You cry about the length. It's under 3k words. That's less than 11 single sided pages double spaced worth of reading in most light reading novels. Less than 6 pages double sided lol . This is concerning a critical issue in this game and frankly you should be able to read that in 10-12 minutes if you read slower than average and have no other learning issues and that is without skipping the copy/pasted section clearly labeled as such or my personal note.
To have Bunny Hopping still in. Why have a mechanic that negates good strategy or bad decisions? PUBG doesn't have any form of bunnyhopping....just sayin. In that game, you screw up you die, you ambush you win. Remove this atrocity from the game!!!! now its tone it down? This just makes no sense......sigh and shrugs...not trying to troll ya big dog but I dont get it. 3 weeks ago you wanted to remove it from the game?? No...?
Ah I see sticking with mockery when you have no real defensive arguments against the core problems? Understandable. Most use dismissive insults I like the change of pace. Did you even read my section on how tactical re-positioning during combat would still be in game without B-Hop as it is now? I doubt it.
understand you tooken alot of grief for this i get that its not a troll im not trying to put you on blast just reiterating what you have said in the past..
Not even close. Then again you're not much of a reader. Twitter length is plenty good for everything up to international politics these days. I never compared this game with PUBG lol. It's a terrible comparison IMO. That was Oywn's and believe it or not Abso is a group of individuals and we're not some hivemind. Many of us disagree on many things. I hijacked his thread to argue the problem from my perspective. I just went even more dramatized and toxic than the average forumfaller. A little taste of their own medicine and my god this community hated it. Tried fighting fire with fire but that was more of a disaster. Lots of staring and no real results and frankly I'm embarrassed regarding that especially since BPG was obviously already thinking about this problem before I said anything... Wish I knew that but oh well it's time for a new approach. PS: If I did offend you or insult you during that rant I apologize for my behavior at that time. Please understand that was specifically for dramatic effect.
Uh Skip the parts you read the other nights. Sections are slightly spaced and titles are in bold. The definitions of griefing are the same. How removing B-Hop would improve the situations has changed. More examples and better defined. Afterward there is a section on how tactical re-positioning would still exist. Read those and get back to me. I want a real discussion man. --- Post updated --- It took way longer than I anticipated it would. Honestly I've never written brick texts like that on any other forums. The things we do to for the things we love. I see this as a serious issue. So yeah I put time and effort into it. Took me a few weeks of arguing with everyone to really figure out how to argue this. I can't stand the game as is and the nerf is good but it's just extra b.s. If you read it you will see what I mean. I don't enjoy the game as a guy who responds to these calls for help or wants to protect their home/people/newbs etc
There was already plenty of discussion and just like I'm not going to re-read your same regurgitated thoughts for the 200th time, I'm not going to regurgitate mine. You have already shown me that you're incapable of accepting any counter arguments to your delusional perspective and dozens of compromises because you want to be right so bad you went full tilt. Now you want a real discussion? Go search all those threads and I'm sure I've answered almost everything in this new thread already.
We have definitely never went over how you could still tactically re-position in combat without B-Hop as it is currently and that's my hardcore nerf. I added more examples of how removing B-Hop as it is would reduce griefing and in general make the game better for many. That's right I won't accept it. I know how it positively impacts the game but the negatives are so much worse. I'm not totally against the mechanic and people would still be launching people around if you read the fucking section. You have barely answered anything or ever will it seems. Waste of time and I don't have eternity to probe the depths of your ignorance.
Quality Grimtide content as always. Such a scholar and a gentleman surely. Why don't you just sush now and maybe someone else can take a turn. Don't worry I know this thread is me vs whats left of the server pretty much. The things we do for the things we love... *Sigh* --- Post updated --- Man I love this thread so much I think we should have a theme song. One of my personal all time favorites and it really suits this. So perfectly I thought I'd share. The best part is could work for both sides depending on your viewpoint Click these words for the song
See you're basically going in long detail about the negatives to bhopping and not talking about the positives very much. In every situation where you talk about the negatives there are also positives for the other side. Before making a post you need to address both sides of the agruement and not just what you see. It would show you understand it from other players perspectives. Since you didn't do that most of this has no true "weight" behind it. Not that I disagree with some of your points because they are valid to some degree. But at the same time I could write a post just as long as yours pointing out the positives in every situation you listed by simply changing the scenarios from griefing noobs to fighting above average players in the same situation. But I don't feel like retyping what I've typed in other threads so here's just a small wall of text.
Give me a good statement for my first section admitting it's good sides and I'll add it in minutes with credit to you. I'm more than happy to list the positives but I believe it is a moot point unless we fix the critical flaws. I'd love for the system to stay and I want us all to figure something out. That's my real goal. Removing is the last ditch measure if nothing can be done. (Changed my mind over time but it still needs readjusting but I don't need it removed to be happy( It needs fixing and we all know it. Some just deny how bad it can be when the worst elements abuse it. I've seen it and I won't play until I can have fun. I never understood the "Fun" of tapping space over and over and looking for the best path. At least mount dodging would need W, A & D at a minimum and would keep me more entertained but that's just my perspective. I don't mind dying it's the harassment and time wastes and the overall lack of enjoyment when it's abused that drive me up the wall on the personal level. Also you should read sections 8 & 10. The sections are numbered and index is at the beginning with larger text and more spaced for easier use. I know it's a brick but this topic isn't simple. Though I have seen it drive people away. I can't quote numbers but I believe it is far worse than commonly believed. Again just my opinion...
I'm not gonna lie bud I skimmed section 8 and 10 and it brought something interesting to my attention. This could be the best suggestion or the worse for the b-hop fix. Remove Fall damage from the game. If bhopping "skillful" and we want to reward people for being able to properly hop away... yet not use it as a means to lower the hp of the winning side of an engagements health bars down to nil giving chase... simply remove fall damage. Fall damage is a dumb part of knock ups that can decide the out come of a fight based off of a magma/come hither - 90 fall damage upon landing. Also fall damage in regards to bhopping allows for the lower hp player to hop away forcing the chaser to give chase and lower his hp in order to chase... at some point they can stop their hop throw a conversion and turn on the chaser who started higher hp - and possible 1 shot him for giving chase with bhops. Remove fall damage from the game - and make it so that skillful bunny hopping means you get away or you can chase someone down. This would remove the ability to take away a whole party of pursuers health bars giving chase to 1 person simply by b-hopping away. He doesn't deserve to bring all their health to nothing for giving chase to finish them. Hell he didn't even do damage to them, they just killed themselves with fall damage. Could be the best or worse idea ever haha take it how you want it. With this form of b-hopping if you could skillfully hop then you can get out of nearly any fight, except for if the person you're running from is equally as skilled if not better and catches you. He wouldn't have to risk dying due to bhopping to finish you. P.s. - I prefer the day where tactical running from a fight required you to use terrain to b-hop away from the enemies giving chase on mounts as you were mounted. You would ride up a hill as they gave chase, and on the way down the hill you would b-hop on your mount. If you were landed it you were gone. If you fucked it up or if they landed theirs better you were fucked. This was terrain based bhopping on mounts. Tactical choosing where to lead the chase.
Wtf im not reading this shyt u serious ??? Why u make ur lide so complex its easy a. Keep bunny hop way it is b. Tweak it c. Remove it d. Do u have anythinf better to do with ur life?
Yeah and even if they used that I am unsure myself. I'd give try it but that's probably the only way I'd be okay with it staying. I'd still prefer removing the effects from yourself so teamwork was required myself. Thanks for your input --- Post updated --- Check out sections 8 and 10. The rest is basic stuff really --- Post updated --- I'm mainly jamming to tunes and surfing online today. As I want to see a real discussion and have the free time to reply but it seems I'm not getting one. I've found some songs that really suit certain things in this game at times. Maybe some visuals/lyrics some of you might gain abit of an understanding. Of course this is all more metaphorical and abit dramatized. Usually the songs themselves are geared toward more serious issues or ones of a separate nature entirely. I'm sure you'll be able to connect the dots though. I got nothing else to do atm but share some links. For those who aren't heavy pvpers or hardcore kill everything types. Those who truly get little to nothing from this mechanic but harassment and wasting time with a side of frustration. This song seems to suit it the best really. Click the word Or how some seem to believe even if they can get enough votes or have everything catered to them it should happen regardless of anyone else. Maybe their empty can can rattle the loudest. Maybe just because they like it and it's deemed more popular doesn't make it better. We're far from mainstream ourselves but trying to dismiss a group just because you enjoy things as they are. These types remind me of the many times the record studios have tried to shut down great artists. Everyone knows my opinions and I don't see this ending well unless we address the real problems in this game. This song is us the resistance against you. You may hate our opinion but we won't stop and this next song suits that situation. Especially comparing the T.V time comment to how much b.s. you are willingly putting up with just to keep a broken system. This next one is known to me thanks to my little sister (16 years younger ). School bullying is no joke and this next one is popular among teens I hear. Just as we ignore children's complaints we ignore new player issues.I want to see new player love. I know it's coming but not fast enough... Things we know that suck and tell them we had it so much worse. Walked both way uphill through snow and all that. For this song just replace bunny with newb and the starting lyrics would be something along. "Don't know why you bother logging in. You ain't gonna live no matter what you try to do. Dumbass Newb". Heres the song Of course if you are wondering what I am actively listening to I've gone through what many consider the best rock concert ever performed and tons of my personal favorites. Using my 7.1 surround sound headset I've been enjoying some of my favorites while surfing websites such as reddit or reading novels or news etc. Waiting for some real discussions but I'm fine with my tunes and the web. I work security and my patience is nearly infinite when I am focused on a goal. Today will be the only day I do this. I'll respond here and there after today when I have time. Queen 1985 Live Aid Event. Voted best rock concert performance of all time by rolling stone magazine back when that meant something so you know it was long ago and still can be argued as the best live performance ever. Daft Punk 2007 Alive Concert Nobody can remix daft punk hits like daft punk themselves. The whole concert was amazing if you like their style. Then while surfing today I found some sweet tracks as well such as this no vocal electro masterpiece IMO I have hundreds of songs from all over and if you need to close your eyes and relax may I suggest this next one. Transpositions are also personal favorites for relaxing. Someone essentially plays a song normally done on a guitar with classical instruments without the vocals. Such as this lovely piece. Totally off topic and I won't continue but I thought I'd share. Since I've had a couple guys wonder wtf I am doing staying logged in forumfalling like I have today. Believe or not I have walked away from my computer and generally enjoyed my day off so far. I'd rather play the game I love but since I don't really enjoy it at the moment I'll put a solid effort into this thread. PS: I primarily listen to rock/metal (TOOL, Old Metallica, Etc) and such and even some foreign groups (Rammstein or anything from anywhere I enjoy) but today I am switching it up and going with primarily live stuff and searching for new stuff since I got the time.
