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Why B-Hop Needs A Different Approach

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Avenging Martyr, Jan 13, 2018.

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  1. Sero

    Sero Menhir Sentinal
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    I mean all he has to do is say I think the game needs to be easier without trying to circumvent his issue with false logic... lol.

    P.S. You should check out the bit where I talk about how harassment is even possible, and look at making Clan Cities/Territory more of an actual clan-oriented thing. Would work wonders for the political game of Darkfall should the population rise.
     
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  2. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    Make a new post about it and I will. I have no intention of reading through all this :D SORRY
     
  3. Grimtide

    Grimtide Evil Eye
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    I gave up on that dudes brain a couple threads ago.
     
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  4. Avenging Martyr

    Avenging Martyr Celestial
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    QUOTE="Sero, post: 228950, member: 2014"]You want health drained removed so it's even easier to zerg someone down that is bunnyhopping away? Your whole argument is flawed because you look at it from the perspective of already having a massive advantage, and you want even more of an advantage? Are you insane?

    Shady harassment ambushes shouldn't be an effective strategy you troll. That is why health drain shouldn't happen.

    If we're so bad at this game you're set and you still whine. Between B-Hop and then mounting up and dodging you should have a guaranteed escape even with the changes.

    Also the sprain mechanic is going to stay cause BPG don't back down unless it's truly horrible. It isn't keep crying.

    Personally I think endless B-Hop is unbelievable tedious. I don't give a shit how good you are it should not be possible.

    If you think the solo guy running away is going to do any better with health drain still in game then you are wrong. Take a drink, calm down and think about it.


    Of course you don't care about 1 on 1, if you had some reading comprehension, you might understand that the issue I was highlighting only applies to 1 on 1 situations where teamwork can't be accounted for, because no player that actually plays this game at a level above noob has your issue.


    1 on 1 is a fight. Not harassment in my perspective. That's all you and grimtide got. He wants to buff zergs as a blanket dismissive insult to justify keeping a broken system as is.

    You have obviously not read my response to people claiming we can't aim. You refuse to read or comprehend my side of this in any way shape or form.


    You want to solve harassment? Get good at the game. Reread the scenario, but in-case you still can't figure it out: MORE THAN 1 PERSON CAN CROSSHEAL, A SOLO PLAYER CAN'T. MORE THAN 1 PERSON CAN CROSSBUFF, A SOLO PLAYER CAN'T. DID YOU KNOW THAT IT IS PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO OUTDPS CROSSHEALS AS A SOLO PLAYER? WOW, IT'S ALMOST LIKE YOU CAN CONTINUALLY HEAL EACH OTHER WHILE CHASING SOMEONE THAT CANNOT CONTINUOUSLY HEAL THEMSELVES. IT'S ALSO LIKE YOU CAN CAST MULTIPLE CC'S FROM MULTIPLE PEOPLE, TO STOP THEM FROM RUNNING AWAY.

    Git gud lol. Thanks for the laugh. If we're all bouncing around you expect the average player to heal while hopping? If most vets tried this shit the enemy will always escape. If they don't heal they are meat for shady ambushes that shouldn't have been so one sided.

    You're out of your fucking mind. I mean we're already a niche. At that point why not put the game on the dark web with a password for your little private lan party. You might be satisfied with this shitty lan party population. I want a real game and I think BPG agrees.

    Holy fuck you really have no fucking clue do you? Never had newbs in your clan or what? Maybe you did and just didn't give a fuck when they get jumped. See people I play with protect our friends/allies actively.



    You do realize that people responding to calls for help are usually spread out right? Like the guy who is closest to the call for help is probably out of healing range of the next guy coming etc etc...

    Unless it's right outside the city walls and everyone was bank staring...Which isn't very likely unless the clan is preparing to do a group event or maybe you guys just sit and bank stare so you're prepared.

    Unless we are lucky enough to be all together when we chase harassers etc we are spread out and can't effectively heal or cross buff.

    If we want to catch a newb killer or harasser we need to move fast and frankly even then it's low odds if the fucker isn't really close.

    So your B.S as usual doesn't really work in reality. I mean we might have a couple guys nearby approaching and we could crossbuff/heal if it was possible at the time.

    You still can't effectively heal and B-Hop at the same time and trying to force average gamers to do this is death for this game. We need more people. Not limiting successful survive to a smaller crowd.




    The sprain mechanic is still on the public test server genius, and it's terrible conception is thanks to whiny threads like this highlighting non-issues.

    Personally I love it. About time BPG stopped catering to this Ultra Niche. You can dismiss it all you want pal. Find me a clan of new players who still play champ. Not reformed veterans. Not clans that splintered and reformed. A clan of new people. What next you going to cry lack content drove them off?


    You want the sprain mechanic and no health lose, you might as well just do away with bunny hopping entirely. All the sprain mechanic does is cater to zerglings, and since you want no health lose, it would just cater to zergs even more. More than that, for some reason you and BPG still haven't figured out that hindering movement - IN ANY GAME - let alone an FPS, is practically the definition of anti-fun. It's like we learned nothing from all the terrible movement mechanics in Unholy Wars.

    That's what I originally wanted. (Removing B-Hop entirely) However I was convinced by others it serves a purpose in sieges and group combat. Tactically re-positioning is a valid mechanic and does take some skill to do it on the fly under pressure with various dynamic factors.

    You want endless running away. Fuck right off. Use B-Hop if we are so bad you will gain great distance on us. Then you just need to dodge and frankly if you don't suck you will get away. So keep crying.


    You know if 2 people can keep up with each other while hopping they can heal each other while they leap-frog each other, the opponent is constantly at 1 hp, you can quickly heal back up to full and catch up to your opponent while you are not at 1 HP, because you have a partner that can heal you.

    They can but who the fucks wants to. You and this low pop server loves it and that's swell. The other side of this is the gigantic fucking waste of time this endless chase shit is.

    We are god damn adults and this is our free time. Why the fuck should we be forced to chase forever just cause someone else doesn't want to learn to dodge? Just cause you think you should have a escape hatch for every scenario doesn't mean everyone else should be forced to waste time to chase someone down.

    Let me guess "but you don't have to chase" and honestly if you say it I will ignore it. i've explained that time and time again. Yes we do have to but you and no one else gave a shit.


    Of course you completely miss the point of the argument, because your so caught up in your own world you fail to see the underlying reason the harassment, as you describe it, occurs in the first place. Let me spell it out for you: Harassment occurs NOT BECAUSE BUNNYHOPPING ALLOWS IT, but because griefers/people have easy access to fuck with you.

    They can do it because B-Hop is the key to their escape. You are a fucking troll. The funniest part is you seem to have deluded yourself into thinking your right. I personally don't care how fucked your perception is or how poorly you understand the issues.

    Wasn't one of your main arguments that harassment wastes a players time?

    TAKE BUNNYHOPPING OUT OF THE EQUATION: Nothing is stopping me from coming naked and hitting your mine. Nothing is stopping me from coming naked and throwing battlespikes at your wall. Nothing is stopping me from killing some rando AFK in your city while wearing a robe. Nothing is stopping me from killing some noob farming goblins. For some reason you think if bunnyhopping was fixed these problems will disappear.

    If we're online and active we'll kill you if we can and as long as you can't endlessly bounce into the distance I will take those odds.

    If we're not online/active you get some loot. At least we will finally be able to chase fucks who mess with out groups down effectively. Which none of your suggestions would fix.

    Unless you want player cities to be safe zones? lol... I'm not trying to create care bear land here.

    Asset damage is probably going to be locked into the siege mechanics so I hope that will finally die.



    OFC they do, because you lack comprehension.

    Irony I love it lol

    Except the issue I'm claiming it solves: Is noobs fighting vets, which is exactly what it solves. Because only a noob has a problem with your situation of bunnyhopping. What you want is a band-aid fix, something AV was amazing at /eyeroll. Pretty sure BPG has made it clear, and the community agrees that band-aid fixes are not something we want, and we need to start fixing core issues, that are required anyways, and in turn can solve most of the problems.

    Again overall that last statement was just a giant dismissive insult. Also shows you haven't read the appropriate sections. You just want a easy escape. Real fucking hardcore man.

    I mean do I only qualify as being hardcore if I endless bounce around forever?

    You people wanting this bouncy house Bullshit in a MMO is fucking hilarious from my perspective. Hardcore lol more like hilarious.

    Mount dodging effectively takes way more skill. Solo players could still B-Hop a mount if they used the environment right but that never crossed your mind did it? Using the terrain tactically would be acceptable because it wouldn't be an every fight simple solution.

    You want to survive by making shit so tedious no one wants to fucking chase you down. Well guess what it sucks and very few want to play one hole wack-a-mole with you. It's a major waste of time, It's not entertaining, it's easily abused with ambushes and frankly not fun at all.


    It's not a dismissive insult if I solve the problem before disconnecting. It's like someone calling tech support at a cable company and saying: "Hey, my TV won't show me cable programming." and tech support replying: "Sir, if you don't have cable programming."

    Wow that analogy sucked.

    Thanks for outlining how to escape people when getting jumped, I really wasn't too sure on how to go about that, thanks so much for your insight, guy who doesn't even play the game. Also thanks so much for recommending I throw a WoF to slow them down. I can tell you are really a top-tier player that should be giving combat advice. Also I agree, groups ambushing you really don't appear out of nowhere, Personally I have no idea what terrain/trees/anything in the game world even is.

    oh noes. I don't play actively atm that instantly renders me unable to remembers years of playtime. Each insult surely rips into my soul. Oh wait pure bullshit as usual.

    Depending on the environment and their personal movement etc you just might throw a WoF. As I am sure you damn well know but hey whatever insults make you feel like a champ.



    0:36 - Could you please enlighten me, How do you escape that tactical master? How does one run away/bunnyhop out of that?

    Frankly if you get juggled to death that is going to happen regardless of B-Hop staying as was, with sprain or with it removed... I mean are you serious? If you are in a impossible situation you are dead.

    WTF do you expect me to say. How about you genius?

    When you get juggled to death how is b-hop as it was going to save you? Man you are such a troll.

    Sure other things need adjusting but again off topic.


    /slowclap You really got everything figured out.

    P.S. Honestly I think that if you aren't in the perfect position to catch a someone bunnyhopping away from you, or you can't stop them from bunnyhoping, that's just poor tactical decision making, and you picked a bad spot to get ambushed/harassed, or are a bad choice of spells to that will stop them from hopping away from you like they did in the above video.[/QUOTE]

    You don't read the main thread sections 8, 9 and 10 and then judge me based on your imagined version of my player skills. You are ridiculous.

    You were right on one thing though. it is a non-issue on this dead server. The harassers/griefers already fucked with everyone they could mess with. The newbs, the vets that tried to protect/help them and ran with them. These people are gone at this point.

    The ones left aren't easily harassed and the harasser/griefer types know it and don't bother.

    Same reason harassers didn't raid those groups early on. The odds weren't in their favor so they didn't bother. You act like this is impossible but you'd be wrong as usual it seems.

    So they are probably fucking with people in other games now since they can't do it here. Just like most of this community they have moved on.

    --- Post updated ---
    I gave up on most of this community long ago. BPG can cater to this ultra niche or open up and make this a real game. Bankruptcy or private lan party. We shall see what they choose.
     
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  5. kilrain

    kilrain Shadow Knight
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    I never said I was taking anyone's side here. You're all going overboard.
     
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  6. Sero

    Sero Menhir Sentinal
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    I agree you. You know whats right, everything you say is flawless, if only BPG listened to you, the game would be perfect... for you.

    Your lack of ability to clearly format forum posts, your lack of ability to keep your composure (even in a forum post I can feel your frusturation surge), your lack of self-awareness, and the fact that you made a game-design discussion thread in GD begging for some attention just shows how perfect and right you really are.
    --- Post updated ---
    Uhhh... He's the one swearing and throwing insults. Everything he's brought up, I've argued civil up until this point.
     
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  7. Avenging Martyr

    Avenging Martyr Celestial
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    No not perfect. I'd bet we'd have a hell of alot more than this private lan party. I've seen lan parties larger than this.

    You think catering to solo players is the way to run a MMO? I mean seriously?

    Whatever we will never agree and I just hope BPG keeps opening up the game to a wider audience.

    Just say my crutch, my crutch, my crutch 3 times before bed and I'm sure you'll be able to bounce across agon forever.
     
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  8. Sero

    Sero Menhir Sentinal
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    I really hope you are actually trolling at this point, because this is comical.
     
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  9. Avenging Martyr

    Avenging Martyr Celestial
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    I'll tone down the language. Though you should stop trolling. You dismiss and insult me over and over.

    Can't aim, don't even play, poor decisions etc etc. Sarcasm, mockery etc are all jabs at me.

    You think you're going to say shit and I'm just going to stand here?

    I'm not your mom or your girlfriend pal. I will swing back.

    Respect gets respect. You don't even understand my side or try to.

    Your just a longer winded version of grimtide.

    Sounds like our song is playing.
     
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  10. Sero

    Sero Menhir Sentinal
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    Ok but you don't play - you've actually admitted this.
    And if you could aim - bunnyhopping wouldn't be an issue, because your clan would do this:



    and literally no solo player would EVER get away from you, EVER.

    In no scenario, that you've described, is bunnyhopping the actual issue.

    You aren't swinging back, like at all dude. You're just embarrassing yourself with text and false logic.
     
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  11. Grimtide

    Grimtide Evil Eye
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    Kicking us off the boat?
     
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  12. Avenging Martyr

    Avenging Martyr Celestial
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    A) Not playing atm does not wipe years of memories from Vanilla DF. Nor does it remove the memories of playing RoA. This mechanic has never changed. You like to pretend me not playing cause I don't like this bouncy house silliness is a valid argument to dismiss everything I say.

    B) Section 9: To those who claim we need to learn to aim

    My vast experiences with this issue since the my earliest darkfall days is usually when I'm not the guy getting attacked/killed initially though in my earliest day I was the one who couldn't handle the situation calling for help.

    Most of the time especially in RoA when I was active I got a plenty of experience with this.

    Because I am responding to a calls for help. Reports of asset damage. Reports of downed allies or newbs.

    I am very unlikely to be aligned perfecting with the harasser / newb killers retreat path.

    If we are lucky it's somewhat similar path but even then we must B-Hop to keep up and we will lose distance as we attempt to cut him off.

    We will be losing health.

    As a fresh player on the scene we are forced into losing health just to prevent even more distance loss.

    Our other option is start firing from whatever distance we initially see them at and then at that point they should have most of their health if they can stat worth a damn. They will escape.

    So we must B-Hop and the less hp he has the better odds of finishing the enemy off as the mechanic is. At that point we are weakened as well. Our best and only chance requires us to sacrifice our health. Which is great for ambushes btw. Great times.

    Before the sprain mechanic we would have approx 2-5 spells/arrows worth of time to hit this skeet disc at high speed and we are most likely not perfectly aligned so we don't have a easy shot all lined up.

    This is a terrible scenario even for a veteran who can aim and are familiar with their spells travel times etc.

    Now at least if we do B-Hop and do just as well they will be forced to mount up and start dodging. We can open fire and force them to dodge. While others go directly at them with B-Hop or Mount Sprint or both. Close the distance best they can and they open fire. An active clan will have others coming.

    The bastards will go down. Right now I just want health drain removed from B-Hop and the sprain mechanic to be more refined. So people can't stop right before it activates and restart B-Hop.

    Lets be clear not chasing is not on the table for a active clan or a new player oriented group of any kind. Losing gear over and over while being slowly whittled down repeatedly is a bad scenario with the wrong elements. It's horrible for moral, unbelievably frustrating and a complete waste of time for the defenders.

    Especially people who want to do other things than bounce after whomever did whatever. Not to mention lost resources and the costs of time/effort with this and how it builds over time.

    There will always be zergs regardless and I would like mounts to get some love so solos have an easier time without B-Hop

    C) Solo players shouldn't be fucking with larger clans so easily regardless. My god it's like you want everyone to devolve into small elitist clans.

    The problem with that is that they simply won't. Elites are the top players. That's what makes them elites. This game won't survive if casuals/baddies or other LARGER groups cannot survive and enjoy the game. You people act like this is mystifying.

    D) Solo players could get thier kicks other ways. I dunno how about VCPs? Naw that's usually a couple guys. How about sea towers... Nope need more people.

    Oh I know maybe they could jump some poor SoB in PvE gear overweight with regs for a "real challenge". We really do need an arena system or duel system for the safe zones so solos can practice and such but really most of the pvp in a MMO should be aimed toward group activities IMO. But hey that's just me.

    E) I watched the video and frankly I do think many combat mechanics need addressing. I want this stale game to evolve.

    - WoF should be a wall that physically blocks spells and can be used to block enemies inc or as a shield for a group for a short time.

    - Juggle spells should give a short buff to prevent more juggling from happening IMO.
    (Funny enough the no fall damage thing would help prevent that from hurting as much but you hate that so whatever)

    - I want Mount health and speed buffed slightly I also want BPG to add water mounts. So we can be rid of water launching. Less tedious, easier to use (Try to resist insulting me despite me being able to water launch. This would be important for opening the game to more people) and if water mounts could dive/sprint and moved at full water launch speed they would be pretty sweet. Check out my mounts need love thread.

    -If you are claiming I need to aim at B-Hoppers such as the example at 1:56 in that video. Well frankly if you read section 9 I wouldn't have to explain to you why that's not the problem overall. Frankly your attempts to say learn to aim or git gud are dismissive insults and have no place in this argument if you actually understood or read the appropriate sections.

    Also it is a great example of how shady ambush tactics work if we try to engage. Thanks for a good example of that.

    - If you are using that mount on mount chase as the example of how endless chasing will still exist I won't argue. If they are too far away we won't be able to get them. In fact that's okay with me as Solo players should be able to survive just not if they slapped a bear and end up mauled.

    At least if we can get him we will. Unlike now with endless B-Hop we try for a min and break off cause it's stupid tedious and then they come back in a couple mins. Maybe bank the loot from killing a gatherer/crafter/farmer and then head back.

    If we decide to full push and we're lucky enough not to be subjected to shady ambush tactics they'll just keep running. Goes long enough it comes down to who brought enough regs and it's a gigantic waste of time. Unbelievably and Utterly tedious and no fun. I'll never understand the unconditional love some have for this broken mechanic.

    You are either a Grade A troll or just refuse to accept the mechanic is broken. You may love the damn thing so much you are willing to ignore the problems it causes for others. I like chain smoking. People that share the office are reporting lung cancer? Damn you people ruining my fun you are so selfish!
     
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  13. Grimtide

    Grimtide Evil Eye
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    How many keyboards do you go through a month?
     
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  14. Avenging Martyr

    Avenging Martyr Celestial
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    None, believe it or not this is the most I've typed in a looong time. I figure I need to wake BPG up. We've seen what catering to you guys has done to this game.

    Let me guess, going to blame the population on lack of content again?

    Could you please explain to me why there are no new people? You know the ones who would find everything new? The ones who haven't done everything in game thousands of times? Can you show me a group of them? Just one? Pretty please?
     
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  15. Grimtide

    Grimtide Evil Eye
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    Catering to us? Hahaha that's a good one. RoA would of been far better off if they had listened since alpha. Nice myth you guys tell yourselves though.

    I can't log in but there's a ton of reasons why most new and old people left. I don't think bhop was even top five for any of them.
     
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  16. Sero

    Sero Menhir Sentinal
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    Lmao. Removing bunnyhopping doesnt stop solo players from messing with larger clans, ive already explained this, and the video highlights why solo players die rather easily to larger clans that dont suck

    The only thing that anyone can gather from your shitposts is that one day some better player came along, killed you, got something really valuable, and got away because you or your clan couldnt catch him, and you vowed from that day on to have a crusade against bunnyhopping, because improving yourself just isn't an option.

    It's becoming more and more evident with every post you make as your original arguments deteriorate, and you go off on tangents. lmao.
     
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    #96 Sero, Jan 16, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
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  17. Avenging Martyr

    Avenging Martyr Celestial
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    Sorry I am using you guys as an example of those who want things to stay the same. Despite obviously not working out.

    If you actually want some valid changes I might even support them.

    I can't tell what side you're even on these days. For or against something?

    I mean you've given me such paradox statements such as B-Hop is really easy and everyone can do it. I'll show you how to do it it's really easy.

    Then the next you're saying you can't easily escape with it. When it really is and we all know it. So easy it's tedious to chase people long distances.

    Mind you always quote real fight scenarios which are nice vacuum arguments.

    When the actual problems we're talking about are harassment issues which B-Hop is the key to success on that topic.

    Then you say we need to learn to aim when in these scenarios we're probably 60-80 feet behind the guy on a off angle from them. Potentially forced off even more during pursuit depending on where you started. The direction of travel and terrain/environment issues etc.

    Usually in harassment response situations we are not perfectly aligned with the guy running.

    Then we get to try our luck at nailing this skeet disc and we got maybe 2-5 shots or less depending on how wide open the area is and the environment itself. At that distance even vets have issues and you expect casuals/newbs etc to learn this and succeed?

    There are alot of issues but this one has affected so many and I know we can solve it.

    I just wish you people would help find a solution instead of saying git gud maybe we could solve the harassment issues and make the system less broken overall while still keeping the solo B-Hop mechanics in place.
    --- Post updated ---
    Again you too are ignoring the harassment scenarios. Quoting real fights and how easy that is to finish.

    I guess it's understandable. You people probably haven't responded to cries for help in your entire darkfall career. So naturally you have no idea what these situations are really like.

    You think the guy is gonna wait for us to surround him or even get close enough to juggle him? WoF? You can't WoF that far.

    You haven't explained nothing but vacuum arguments outside the scope of this discussion and repeatedly used dismissive insults to justify your position.

    You think I am crying cause I am dying alot? OMFG lolol thank you I needed a good laugh.

    Oh dear, you really believe it don't you?
     
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  18. dempig

    dempig Goblin Warrior
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    So basically this thread is just Martyr whining about getting outplayed and not being able to zerg people.

    And the devs are actually listening to guys like this? Lol. No wonder this games dead.
     
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  19. Sero

    Sero Menhir Sentinal
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    No one wants the game to stay the same, we just want to tackle the actual issues of the game.

    You know, things like clan warfare, value to holdings, perhaps some new content. We don't rehash literally 8 year old arguments that aren't even valid.

    Like look at your post, you're so deluded in your own world it's ridiculous.
    Are you actually serious though?

    I really shouldn't even bother trying to argue with you during what I can only infer, is a break in reality, but let's see if there is any form of reason in there:

    If bunnyhopping isn't a thing, and you aren't close enough to knock someone up, WoF them, come hither, or blind them, how are you going to catch them in the first place?
     
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  20. Avenging Martyr

    Avenging Martyr Celestial
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    Nope but that is the general dismissive insult championed to attempt to keep this broken mechanic in game.

    The game is dead cause they listed to you people. Don't touch combat, don't change spells or mechanics etc.

    I was inactive on this forum for over 6 months. I played off and on and noone can blame nothing on me.

    If anything I was helping people in game and sharing gear etc. Showing newbs good spawns.

    The state of the game is on you guys. Not me. They never did nothing I ever suggested and frankly it's about time that changed.
     
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